No article, just opinions

Since we’ve once again been discussing popular reaction to police killings, I’m curious to know what you all think in general, rather than about the specific cases of late. At what point is resistance–including and beyond destruction of property–an appropriate (if not morally necessary) response to repeated police abuses? How far could you be pushed before you safety and dignity demanded a direct response?

39 thoughts on “No article, just opinions

  1. RE: “At what point is resistance–including and beyond destruction of property–an appropriate (if not morally necessary) response to repeated police abuses?”

    I don’t subscribe to the premise that police abuses are a significant problem. So, I would frame the question differently: When is violent political protest justified?

    To that question I’d answer almost never. Violent political protest might be justified in the case of a revolution, but even then one is bound to take into account the opinions and interests of one’s countrymen. A lone revolutionary has no special privilege to commit violence.

    More generally, I can’t think of any circumstance in which committing violence is morally necessary. There are times when violence may be justified, but justification is not the same as necessity.

    Like

    1. “ Violent political protest might be justified in the case of a revolution, but even then one is bound to take into account the opinions and interests of one’s countrymen.”

      I distinctly recall your excuse that the insurrectionists “had no choice” in comments after the 1/6 attack. So considering that you condone political violence in revolution, the the attack must have been an effort to overthrow the government as well as overturn the election. Of course, the attackers obviously did not take the opinions and interests of most of their countrymen. The majority of Americans were fine with the election’s integrity and Biden’s election.

      The vast majority of protests here and abroad over the Floyd murder were peaceful. Agitators, provocateurs, criminal opportunists, and others who needed to distract from the issues made the news.

      As noted by Leonard Pitts today, MLK said that even a little violence distracts from the issue being protested.

      So in my opinion, grass roots “get out the vote” drives like Abrams did in GA, is the much preferred route. Once violence becomes the norm, welcome to the Third World.

      Despite the efforts to undermine our democracy by the right wing, our institutions are still intact, if a bit sclerotic. Keep the violence in the corrals of right wing gangs and Americans will tire of their childish but deadly antics.

      Getting all the media to highlight the right wing domestic terrorists just like they showed fires and rioting every night.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. It’s not the “Floyd murder” it’s the Floyd death by misadventure.

        When you look at the evidence the defense presented, it’s quite clear he died of his underlying conditions, multi drug intoxication and his own manic resistance to a lawful arrest.

        Like

        1. And when you read the prosecution he died of oxygen deprivation. Several police pressing on him face down and handcuffed.

          You remind me of the cause of death when shot in the heart. Heart failure of course.

          You believe what you want. Jury will decide.

          Liked by 1 person

          1. The jury will decide, though I have little confidence the mobs outside won’t affect their verdict.

            The prosecution wants to have it both ways.

            When the defense suggested carbon monoxide from the tailpipe might have played a part, the prosecution said the arriving paramedics measured Floyd’s oxygen saturation at 98% but then they also want to claim he died of hypoxia.

            Like

          2. CO from the tailpipe was so ludicrous. There is a question about whether the engine was even running, but the defense doc throws out that crap hoping something would stick..

            It worked, evidently, for you.

            Liked by 1 person

          3. You aren’t paying attention.

            I’m not supporting the CO claim, I’m pointing out that in refuting it, the prosecution revealed irrefutable proof that Floyd was not asphyxiated. You don’t die of hypoxia with a 98% oxygen saturation.

            That leaves heart failure as the cause of death.

            Like

          4. I read that Floyd’s oxygen levels in the lung was 98%, but I cannot find anything about a contradiction, so I am a bit confused.

            Yet, three police holding down a man on his chest, hands behind him can very well interfere with breathing. Never mind the neck press.

            Chauvin refused to let a paramedic tend to Floyd despite him begging for his life. And kept kneeling long after Floyd stopped breathing.

            Sorry, but Floyd would be alive today if the arrest were not handled so badly.

            Liked by 1 person

        2. Please take me at my word when I say that what follows is an honest attempt to understand your worldview and not a guy who disagrees with you on most everything just trying to be an asshole:

          Based on your avatar, and statements you’ve made about your age, you appear to be someone who may have a few “underlying conditions” of his own. Maybe the blood pressure and cholesterol are getting up there. Maybe the lung capacity isn’t what it used to be. Maybe the shoulders aren’t as flexible anymore. Is it possible that if a much younger man where kneeling on your neck that might put you in some distress? Maybe your lack of shoulder mobility or your desperate attempt to find some breathing room might be construed as resisting arrest?

          How can you watch that video and not be struck by (at best) a wanton indifference to human life?

          Liked by 1 person

          1. There’s plenty of video. Watch the part BEFORE he was on the ground. How he got there makes a difference.

            Note also where Chauvin’s eyes are in those last minutes. They’re not on Floyd, they are on the hostile mob surrounding them.

            Like

          2. I don’t agree, once someone is on the ground and in handcuffs, they’re not much of a danger to anyone. Then again, I don’t walk around convinced everyone I see is a second away from murdering me.

            And I suppose one man’s “hostile mob” is another man’s “bystanders desperately pleading for a man’s life.”

            Liked by 2 people

          3. …”the hostile mob”…

            Interesting. You refer to several bystanders calling for the police to get off of a dying man a “hostile mob”, but you refer to the insurrectionists who stormed the capitol “trespassers”.

            The complete and total nonchalance of Chauvin kneeling of Floyd’s neck for over 9 minutes is what is most disturbing. It reminded me of Captain Morgan.

            Like

          4. The mob was hostile enough to serve as a distraction. Note that I am not claiming that Chauvin was not excessive in holding Floyd down after he stopped struggling, but the medical evidence tells me that excessive of not, it was not what killed Floyd.

            But tell me why is it no one seems concerned that Floyd chose to fight rather than submit to a legal arrest.

            Are the police now supposed to just say “never mind” if a suspect objects to be arrested? No one seems to assign any of the responsibility to Floyd.

            And welcome back, I hope your visit was joyous.

            Like

          5. Distraction? The look on Chauvin’s face while kneeling was that of complete and total disregard for the situation. It is the same kind of face I expect JTR or Bobr to have when they throw out their hateful idiotic statements attacking anyone that doesn’t believe the same way they do. It was the sheer smugness of “I’m a cop and you can’t do shit about it.”

            As far as the arrest goes, a citation could have been issued without taking him into custody. He was no threat to anyone’s safety until the police showed up and possibly caused him to feel threatened…just because he is a black man. A petty criminal treated as if he had just robbed a bank or kidnapped a child. He passed a bad bill and he was more or less executed for it.

            And thank you. It was VERY enjoyable, weather not with standing. Brisk walk at the NYC reservoir on Saturday and 9 holes of golf with Dad on Sunday. Rained all the way up and half way back, but damn, it was well worth it.

            Like

      2. RE: “So considering that you condone political violence in revolution, the the attack must have been an effort to overthrow the government as well as overturn the election.”

        That doesn’t make any sense logically. To be clear, I have never imagined the Capitol incursion to be a revolutionary event. It looked more like a big bungle to me.

        As for the Floyd protests, it is crazy to pass them off as “peaceful.” There were fires, beatings and shootings, with an estimated $2 billion in property damage.

        Like

        1. You can spin it all you want. Thousands attacking the Capitol hundreds getting in, beating police half to death screaming for legislators to kill or capture.
          Audio communications coordinating gang members. A “bungle” is hardly the correct description. Typical gaslighting by the right. Like Ron Johnson saying he was not afraid during the attack because they were all law abiding patriots.

          I said the vast majority of protests, and there were about 9000 or so worldwide, were peaceful. So of course that leaves a few hundred with criminal opportunists and provocateurs causing mayhem that the news loves to lead with.

          Liked by 1 person

  2. Violence is justified only in defense of life or property from immediate, unlawful harm.

    There is no circumstance in which destruction of private property is justified by the acts of a third party. such as the police or different private person.

    Like

    1. I’m glad you chimed in since you seem to be the only one on the Right who will allow that cops are capable of abuse.

      So if post facto property destruction is off limits, what then? Black Panther style neighborhood patrols where armed people follow the cops around to make sure they’re on the up and up?

      Liked by 1 person

      1. Sure, I started the Tidewater liberty blog on the Ryan Frederick case.

        https://tidewaterliberty.wordpress.com/category/ryan-frederick-case/page/6/

        Blog posts are in inverse order, so if you’re curious, start at the bottom with “Knock, knock”

        But that doesn’t apply to any of the recent cases other than Breona Taylor. In every other case, the police responded to either attempts to escape or violent resistance.

        What then? Body cameras on policemen and cell phone cameras in the hands of the public. Policemen can’t even spit on the sidewalk without it getting posted n Facebook.

        There are very few things that justify armed resistance to the police.

        Like

        1. So it’s okay for the cops to execute someone for non compliance?

          Or to choke the life out of a man lying on his face with his hands cuffed behind his back?

          Or how about this 13 year old kid they just shot with his hands up?

          Liked by 2 people

          1. It’s OK for the police to use necessary force to subdue a resisting subject.

            Floyd died of heart failure, he was not choked.

            The 13 year old boy had a handgun in his hand only a moment before he was shot. He had ditched it behind the fence before he turned to face the policeman, who, from his angle, could not have seen him drop the handgun.

            A policeman who hesitates to be sure the handgun he had seen a few seconds before is still there doesn’t get to go home to his family.

            Like

          2. “Floyd died of heart failure, he was not choked.”

            But the heart failure was caused by the undo stress placed on him by 4 cops kneeling on his back and neck. Once he was subdued, he was no longer a threat but was treated as one because he was a large black man,

            He turned with is hands raised. RAISED in surrender, not holding the gun gun in a threatening manner,

            Like

          3. Ok, cops sees military aged male running with handgun in his hand. On reaching a fence, the MAM turns around to face the cop, and at the same time, tosses the gun through a gap in the fence.

            You’re saying the cop, who can’t see the gun being tossed, should wait for him to finish turning around to be sure he still has the gun?

            A cop who does that is giving the MAM first shot. there is no requirement for him to do that, he is right to presume the gun is still there until he can see otherwise and have the time to process it.

            Like

          4. He was a 15 year old boy. And his hands were UP when he turned. While your assessment of the situation YOU described may be correct, you are not seeing what actually happened.

            Like

          5. And by the time he finished turning and the hands went up, it would have been too late if he had been turning to fire on the officer.

            Having seen the gun, any attempt to turn around would require firing unless the officer had seen him drop the gun.

            And I sure as hell wasn’t going to refer to a young Black man as a “boy.”

            Like

          6. FYI, I have an underlying condition where if a piece of lead penetrates my chest with significant force it causes me to lose blood rapidly. So if I am ever shot, please tell the prosecutor that I died of natural causes.

            Liked by 1 person

        2. I am not going to look up all the police killings, but we can start with Tamir Rice. Then the man in Sears talking on his cell phone and shot down like a rabid dog. Then the man who was shot and killed trying to get his concealed carry permit out for the officer. And there was a man who was shot just complying with the officer to get his license and registration. He did not die, luckily. Or the unarmed man shot in the street from a good distance away as he lay down.

          So there may be a lot more than you are willing to admit.

          Liked by 1 person

  3. At the very least, Chauvin is guilty of depraved indifference. The most powerful argument by the prosecution was when one of the prosecutors said, “even a child knew that he was dying.” He then reminded the jury that indeed a 9-year was shouting at Chauvin was killing Floyd.

    Liked by 2 people

  4. Boy, what a loaded question. There is never justification for resisting arrest, expecting the police to just give up and then others torching the town because the latter went badly like it always does. You know, police doing their job but you call it abuse. Every one of the recent events but Taylor were the fault of the arrestee and even Taylor was a victim of hanging with bad people. I have felt unfairly treated by police but I gave due respect, never resisted and all turned out fairly well. Where I didn’t agree with them, all traffic or boating violations, I argued in court and won many times.

    Like

    1. Waters calling for continued protests are NOT calls to violence as you and the right-wing media talking heads have attempted to spin it. The same people saying that are he same ones who said January 6th was just a little misunderstanding.

      Like

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google photo

You are commenting using your Google account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s