Probable cause for investigation of Biden dates from Jan 23rd, before Biden was a candidate.

Past Ukrainian prosecutor Shokin disclosed to Giuliani in an interview in January that he had been told to back off the investigation of Bursima, and that it was because of a threat from Biden to block aid.

The notes were turned over to the State Dept Inspector General but they were not followed up, for reasons not known.

So, President Trump did indeed have probable cause to ask the Ukraine to reopen the investigation.

23 thoughts on “Probable cause for investigation of Biden dates from Jan 23rd, before Biden was a candidate.

  1. RE: “So, President Trump did indeed have probable cause to ask the Ukraine to reopen the investigation.”

    I agree, both because of Guiliani’s info and because of other info on the record. But there’s a larger issue at stake, too.

    We elect a president for a limited time. He is entitled to conduct foreign policy by his own lights during his time in office. The bargain is: We give the president awesome powers and a free reign, and we expect him to use them in our interests. If we don’t like the results, we get to hire someone else after the first term. And if that isn’t good enough we can remove him by other Constitutional means.

    No one has yet shown that president Trump has broken his bargain with the American people.


    1. DON AND JOHN,

      “We give the president awesome powers and a free reign, and we expect him to use them in our interests.”

      Congress has not done its job. Foreign policy does not include tariffs or war as sole powers of the president except as warped understandings of laws. Laws that were passed under some lame excuse of “emergency” and then left on the books by a do nothing Congress.

      The president is supposed to execute the laws passed by Congress. Congress appropriates foreign aid, sets tariffs, declares war, approves treaties, writes immigration laws, funds diplomatic personnel, etc.

      This regime is not the first to overstep the bounds, but hopefully its abuses might provide a “last straw” for future Congresses to reestablish proper Constitutional authorities.

      On point, did Hunter Biden benefit from being Joe’s son to get a seat on the board? No doubt.

      Yet we have a White House that is packed with family, on the payroll in some cases, whose businesses have certainly benefited by dad being president.

      “Last spring, Kushner Companies reached a tentative deal with Brookfield Asset Management, which is one of the world’s largest real estate companies, for a 99-year lease on the troubled office tower. At the same time as Brookfield’s property arm was making its deal with the Kushners, another Brookfield unit announced its $4.6bn purchase of Westinghouse Electric, a bankrupt nuclear services company that was part of the consortium vying to build power plants in Saudi Arabia.”

      That, to me, is blatant corruption along with nepotism and, worst of all, foreign policy for financial benefit. Foreign policy in an area of the world we are intimately involved with and has high stakes for both war and nuclear proliferation.

      (The article has all the details of the regime’s shady Saudi connections).

      Biden’s son on a gas board might be unseemly, but small potatoes to the billions in just that one backdoor deal with the Saudis. There are others, like Ivanka’s trade and patent deals in China or ZTE’s sanction relief and Trump deals in Indonesia.

      Trump has raised (or is it lowered?) the bar on corrupt practices. No wonder he is freaking out about Biden.

      Trump gets caught robbing a bank and points out a rival who forgot to tip a waitress.


      Liked by 3 people

      1. Taking the time to discuss and debate the comments from these two lying and corrupt individuals is another example of the deflect and distract strategy of the one-trick-pony in the WH, and a complete waste of time…

        Liked by 2 people

        1. Perhaps. But I enjoy the debates particularly because it gives me an opportunity to search around the web a bit.

          I think that the examples I gave are sorely overlooked as obviously corrupt on a scale not before seen in presidencies.

          And the Biden issue is a reflection of realities in the world. Sons and daughters regularly benefit in college acceptances, job opportunities and investments if their parents are prominent, powerful or wealthy.

          The whole concept of networking is based on that. Relationships and connections count often more than skills, at least for opening some doors.

          Do I feel it is right or equitable? No. On the other hand can we tell someone like Hunter Biden that he can’t take this or that opportunity because his dad is VP?

          The Kushner-Saudi deal stinks, however. That directly involves foreign policy in an area that is very volatile. Lives are at stake. People are getting slaughtered in Yemen. Nuclear proliferation is very possible. And all dependent upon billion dollar personal business deals in the White House.

          IMHO, of course.

          Liked by 2 people

          1. The Kushner-Saudi deal is as you stated problem. On multiple levels. And yes, the Hunter Biden deal is a typical outgrowth of being “connected” and done routinely. The fact that the former is not the focus of a “corruption” investigation and the latter is represents a clear abuse of power.

            I will admit that even though I consider the FOX piece “a complete waste of time” I read it and back-checked to see if there was anything to it or if it was un-corroborated BS. So it that regard it was worthwhile to confirm the facts of the situation rather than rejecting them based it on any preconceived bias.

            Liked by 2 people

      2. RE: “The president is supposed to execute the laws passed by Congress.”

        Sometimes when people say this they mean to imply that the president works for Congress or is somehow subservient the Congressional wishes. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Executive is a co-equal branch of the federal government and its authority to conduct foreign affairs (primarily through diplomacy) is near absolute.

        RE: “That, to me, is blatant corruption along with nepotism and, worst of all, foreign policy for financial benefit.”

        No doubt there’s an appearance of corruption, but — as with Joe and Hunter Biden — the appearance is all we have at present. Your Guardian article points out that the Westinghouse deal was approved by the Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States. That’s the same group that approved the Uranium One deal that Bill and Hillary Clinton set up. I’m all for seeking hard evidence of corruption, if anyone can find it. Until then, I’m not biting.

        It’s worth noting that Trump has been losing money since he took office: Forbes last year put his losses at $400 million. If the man is using his office to enrich himself or his family, he has a funny way of showing it.


        1. Oh I didn’t expect to convince you. That Fifth Avenue shooting hasn’t happened yet.

          Close, though. The texts among State Department officials is very revealing.

          As far as Trump losing $400 million goes, two things.

          First, without tax returns how does anyone know?

          Next, Trump multiple bankruptcies demonstrate to me that he could lose money with or without a presidency. Being corrupt does not imply business acumen.

          Liked by 2 people

        2. RE: “Oh I didn’t expect to convince you.”

          You didn’t, and you won’t until you can base your criticisms of Trump on something substantial.


      3. And yet Trump and his family have lost net worth during his time in office(in spite of good economic times) while Biden, Clinton and Obama and their families all became wealthy in office.

        There is no prohibition for the families of elected officials from being in business unless they are using the influence of the office holder to advance their ends. It is clear that Hunter Biden did exactly that, and no evidence at all that Kushner has done anything other than business as usual. He was in the real estate development business before Trump was elected and still is.

        Hunter Biden was hired for a job at $50K/mo for which he had no knowledge or experience.

        See the difference?


        1. More “alternative facts” – do you never stop?

          Trump losing net worth? How do you know? Because HE says so? LOL! Trump who promised several hundred times to release his tax returns has never done so and is fighting subpoenas and breaking laws to keep them a deep dark secret.

          Neither Clinton nor Obama “became wealthy IN office.” That is a LIE. Their wealth came after they left office – kind of like Ronald Reagan who earned as much as $2 million for a single speech.

          It is NOT clear in ANY way that Hunter Biden used the influence of the office holder to advance his ends. You just made that up and in spite of considerable efforts to find evidence to support that lie, none has been found.

          Hunter had no knowledge or experience? Says who? Yale law degree, many years as a lobbyist, Wall streeter and venture capitalist. He was a “player.” It is worth mentioning that George W. Bush appointed him to the board of Amtrak in 2006. As for his gig on the Burisma board it is SOP for entrepreneurs to add such people to their boards and at comparable or higher compensation for the prestige they bring if nothing else.

          Why not try being honest in your defense of Trump – if that is even possible.?

          Liked by 2 people

  2. What baloney. You embarrass yourself again. Here is a hint. Do not trust Rudy or Fox News on anything.

    The investigation of Burisma ended long before the international pressure lead to Shokin being removed. That pressure started before Joe Biden got involved following Obama administration policy and not a personal agenda.

    Furthermore, that investigation of Burisma that had ended was concerning its activities between 2010 and 2012. Hunter Biden joined its Board in 2014.

    Unless time can flow backward there is not a hint of “probable cause” which, of course, is a concept that is alient to Mr. Trump anyway.

    This gas lighting by the President and his running dogs is a profound threat to our democratic society. Stalin would love it though.

    Liked by 3 people

    1. Clearly you did not read the article.

      “The Wall Street Journal reported last week that by the time of Biden’s intervention, the Burisma probe had been dormant.

      However, Shokin, at the time, according to the interview, was investigating Mykola Zlochevsky, the former minister of ecology and natural resources of Ukraine — also the founder of Burisma. Hunter Biden was appointed to the board of the firm, which Shokin claimed was an appointment made by Zlochevsky “in order to protect himself.””


    1. That article doesn’t cover the same time frame as Giuliani’s disclosure.

      The point is that in his efforts to investigate Ukrainian efforts to influence the 2016 election, Rudy came across evidence of corruption by Biden while he was Vice President. He turned that evidence over to the State Dept BEFORE Biden began his campaign.

      So, absent a time machine, how can Trump’s request that the Ukraine reopen it’s investigation be about politics when the corruption was discovered and reported before the campaign began?

      Further, knowing that a former Vice President engaged in corrupt acts while in office, how can Trump NOT pursue the matter?

      After all, Joe Biden is not above the law simply because he is a potential political opponent.


      1. “knowing that a former Vice President engaged in corrupt acts”

        See how gas lighting works on weak minds? Trump “knows” no such thing and yet you write as if this putative “corruption” was real and not a figment of Trump’s desperate imagination. “Joe Sixpack” may be taken in by Trump’s Stalinist lies, but you as well? Sad.

        I am reminded of the way the GOP turned decorated war hero John Kerry into a cowardly murderer of innocent teenagers and a malingerer. Or Barack Obama turned into a Muslim from Kenya. Or Hillary Clinton turned into a mass murderer. The GOP is still using the same old Stalinist playbook – repeat lies often enough and the weak-minded will start to fervently believe them.

        Liked by 3 people

      2. Shokin was the corrupt leftover from a previous regime that the entire Western World was pressuring Ukraine to get rid of if that country wanted legitimacy. Biden’s threat to withhold $1 billion in loan guarantees was quite overshadowed by the IMF’s withholding of $40 billion.

        Shokin’s honesty was hardly a source of solid info, not to mention Giuliani’s reputation.

        This “debate” over the Ukraine is a smokescreen for Trump trying to both smear Biden and, more importantly, to divert election interference from Putin to Ukraine.

        Liked by 3 people

        1. You do understand the difference between ‘proof beyond reasonable doubt’ and ‘probable cause?’

          Looking at it another way, with what Giuliani was told,especially that Hunter Biden was hired for “protection,” would it not be corrupt to fail to follow up on it? After all, the endless investigations of Trump were based on far less probable cause.


          1. I also made a comment about connections in business. Any son or daughter of prominent and powerful people will always get favorable treatment. A true meritocracy would be nice.

            Again, Shokin was a pariah to the West as well as Ukraine. As corrupt as can be. A one on one interview with Giuliani is not impeccable evidence of anything outside the right wing bubble.


            Liked by 2 people

          2. @Tabor
            re: Hunter Biden was hired for “protection”

            If the disgraced former prosecutor who was finally pushed out by Joe Biden actually made such a statement and/or if one can actually believe ANYTHING that Rudy says and if it is, in fact, true – still where is the Biden corruption or even probable cause for an investigation? One is not accountable for the motives of others, only you own acts. In this case that board also included the past President of Poland – maybe for “protection” as well.

            This is typical sophistry – trying to pretend that there is probable cause for SOMETHING where there is none. Trump was not pursuing justice nor fighting corruption by demanding an investigation of the Biden family. He was trying to kneecap his strongest opponent. If you believe otherwise then you are – to put it plainly – a dope.

            Liked by 1 person

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