Arrest warrants being issued by the ICC is pretty significant in this tragedy. Those aren’t issued will-nilly.
In the end, it may only be symbolic, but…
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What is also telling is that Slovakia and Poland are sending MiG 29’s to Ukraine.
These two countries know the horrors of being under the Russian boot. Ukraine and Moldova are the last barriers from Putin’s savagery.
When Russia is defeated, Ukraine must be rebuilt and holding the Russian leadership responsible is the least we should expect.
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RE: “Those aren’t issued will-nilly.”
That remains to be seen. The warrants in this case are being kept secret.
https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/situation-ukraine-icc-judges-issue-arrest-warrants-against-vladimir-vladimirovich-putin-and
Consequently, there is no way to know whether the charges are legitimate, or not.
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Even if you had the warrants in your hand, you would declare them illegitimate. SO your statement is just another Roberts fertilizer dump.
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Moving children out of a war zone to a place of safety is a war crime? Who thought that up?
I guess Russia should have left them in place to be shelled and bombed. Remember that Ukraine has been shelling civilian populations off and on since 2014.
If someone had devised a plan for turning Russia in to more of a rogue state than ever, they could not have done better. I’ll bet Putin’s popularity at home goes up 20%(it couldn’t go more because it was already 80%.)
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Don, I think you are being naive. Moving them to a Poland would have been logical. There is evidence that those children are being “re-educated” without their parents.
Ukraine has been fighting Russian soldiers trying to occupy Donbas since 2014.
Putin is a butcher evidenced by his direct slaughter of civilians in Chechnya, Syria, Georgia, now Ukraine and setting the stage for a Moldova. Never mind his track record of journalists, politicians and oligarchs in Russia and overseas.
But you know this.
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And if he had left them in the crossfire, how many would be dead? Were they relocated without their parent’s consent?
In WW2, Londoners sent their children to live with strangers in the countryside to avoid the Blitz. Was that a war crime?
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So why was there crossfire to begin with? If Putin had not invaded in 2014 and again in 2022 and had he respected the Internationally accepted, and agreed to by Russia, borders we wouldn’t have this problem, now would we?
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That is irrelevant to the decision to take the children out of harm’s way once the war was begun.
And Zelensky could have avoided the war simply by letting the Eastern Oblasts have their independence
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Putin attacked. Crimea in 2014, Donbas shortly after, and a mass attack on the Capital in 2022.
Is it hard to grasp that or are your so enamored with autocracy, Putin style, that you too are smitten with his rapacious butchery.
You are saying since he as flattened a good chunk of the infrastructure, killed and tortured civilians by the thousands and some folks speak Russian anyway, so let him have what’s left. Including stripping families of children to turn into obedient Russian serfs.
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“And Zelensky could have avoided the war simply by letting the Eastern Oblasts have their independence”
They did not want their independence. Only a Russia-armed Russia-manipulated minority pretended to want that. The goal all along was anexation by Russia and its siezure of valuable agricultural and mineral resources belonging to its sovereign neighbor. And whatever those provinces “wanted” is not material. They are part of Ukraine. Period. That’s the law.
Stealing children is only one of Putin’s war crimes. And not even the worst.
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“Londoners sent their children to live with strangers ”
Right. The PARENTS moved them or had them moved. This is not the case as has been documented previously.
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RE: “There is evidence that those children are being ‘re-educated’ without their parents.”
What does that even mean? Children aren’t educated to begin with, so how can they be “re-educated”?
Putin is no more a “butcher” than any U.S. president during our life times.
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If you believe that our presidents and Russian despots are one and the same, then who am I to argue.
Yes, we have a spotted history. But I tend to side with the United States. Our journalists, opposition leaders, protesters, are not killed or imprisoned as a matter of policy.
Plus one of the criticisms Don used toss out is that he admired the Russians because they did not mind wholesale slaughter in recalcitrant Muslim nations, civilians included. I believe we try hard, even at the expense of our our safety, to minimize mass murders.
Winston Churchill once remarked that you can count on Americans to do the right thing…after they tried everything else. Backhanded compliment, but I believe as a nation we are better than most despotic nations.
Maybe that’s just me…apparently. I do love America, but we are not perfect.
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RE: “Our journalists, opposition leaders, protesters, are not killed or imprisoned as a matter of policy.”
That’s a nice fantasy. Tell it to Julian Assange and the Jan. 6 protestors.
RE: “I believe we try hard, even at the expense of our our safety, to minimize mass murders.”
Another nice fantasy. Bombing civilians with overwhelming air power has been American military doctrine since WWII.
RE: “I believe as a nation we are better than most despotic nations.”
And the hits keep on coming. A better nation would have helped Ukraine avoid the war it is in, but instead we are using Ukrainians to die for us.
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So why are you even staying in a country so murderous?
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RE: “So why are you even staying in a country so murderous?”
That’s not a serious question. I would add to my earlier comment, though.
The pieties you recite are all very nice. They may even contain small insights. But they do not reflect reality and they are not valid as principles of national operation.
So, I might ask you, Why do you insist on having your fantasies? Why do you insist on demonizing others?
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Speaking of demonizing…
“ Another nice fantasy. Bombing civilians with overwhelming air power has been American military doctrine since WWII.”
When the government lied to us in Vietnam, the American public sentiment of WW2 shifted to reality.
When since Vietnam have we done what you said as a matter of doctrine?
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RE: “When since Vietnam have we done what you said as a matter of doctrine?”
In every armed conflict.
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Well I guess that settles it.
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“January 6 protesters?”
You mean the January 6 CRIMINALS.
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“What does that even mean? ”
How about this word: INDOCTRINATION”. A word that is claimed by your side of the discussions when talking about education.
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“Moving children out of a war zone to a place of safety is a war crime”..
When done by someone other than the parents and without the parents permission it is called KIDNAPPING.
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I would say in the beginning it is symbolic at best and laughable at worst. I don’t think Russia/Putin cares what the ICC has to say nor recognizes any authority it thinks it has. If Russia, China, North Korea and Iran issued an arrest warrent for a sitting US president, I don’t think the US would take it seriously either.
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RE: “I don’t think the US would take it seriously either.”
Interesting you should mention that. The U.S. is not a signatory to the ICC and in fact reserves the right to invade Holland when the ICC displeases us.
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Send more tulips, or Rotterdam gets it.
Yeah, I could see that. “Demon” America has spoken, evidently.
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“The American Service-Members’ Protection Act, known informally as the Hague Invasion Act, is a United States federal law described as “a bill to protect United States military personnel and other elected and appointed officials of the United States government against criminal prosecution by an international criminal court to which the United States is not party.”[1] The text of the Act has been codified as subchapter II of chapter 81 of title 22, United States Code. ”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act
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What’s your point. We know we are not a signatory to ICC.
Next.
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RE: “What’s your point. We know we are not a signatory to ICC.”
You mocked my statement. I gave you the background.
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Are you really that sensitive?
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RE: “Are you really that sensitive?”
Are you really that insensitive?
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“ Why do you insist on having your fantasies? Why do you insist on demonizing others?”
I didn’t whine after that double barreled insult, but I can issue trigger warnings for you like liberals used to ask for a decade ago providing endless mirth for conservatives.
We do our best to accommodate individual needs. Others, not so much.
Anyway, comparing Assange and the violent mob being held accountable for assaulting police, destroying federal property, defecating on the floor and walls, to persecutions in Russia for just speaking about the war is kind of a stretch to say the very least.
I am not sure you appreciate our freedoms.
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RE: “I am not sure you appreciate our freedoms.”
I’m not sure you appreciate how much your commentary sounds like it was written by a “good German.”
In this case, I made a legitimate point, which then needed to be defended because you chose to be sarcastic about it. Now you are pretending to be the exemplar of a superior morality.
If I were Jewish I should be worried about now.
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“If I were Jewish I should be worried about now.”
As the token Jew here, I am not nervous about what Len said. I am nervous about people you agree with who hide their hatred until they are let loose. I am nervous because of the growing anti-Semitism in this country led to the fore by GOP members and supporters. I am nervous about the BULLSHIT you try to spread as actual information.
Len does not make me nervous and for you to pretend to give a shit that Jews should be nervous because of HIS. words I say to you, YOU LIE!
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“If I were Jewish I should be worried about now.”
And a lot of Jewish people are becoming worried. And with good reason. Antisemitism is now part and parcel of the MAGA movement.
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2022/09/gop-republican-party-antisemitism.html
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