In order to avoid any accusations of proposing a First Amendment violation, I would like to suggest that the Fox News glitterati triumvirate of Carlson, Hannity and Ingraham be removed from Fox News’ prime time line up and move them to a more appropriate venue: FOX Network. Alongside such entertaining shows as The Masked Singer, The Simpsons, Bob’s Burgers, and the like. Based on their behind-the-scenes discussions, they don’t belong on a news network.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/16/media/fox-news-stars-executives-court-documents/index.html
Not to mention the brass being too concerned about stock prices and “the brand” than actual reporting. Plus, Hannity demanding one of their own reporters be fired for having the temerity to do her job and fact check statements by the previous administration.
Tidewater News and Opinion Forum 
Those are opinion programs, not news.
What do you propose to do with opinion programs on MSNBC, NPR and CNN?
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Opinions and opinions. The crux of the matter is that FOX celebrities knew the fraud claims were wrong, laughed through internal memos about the folks spreading conspiracies, but executives said we need to protect the brand, so keep up the lies to keep the audience.
In other words, they were attacking an American corporation with lies that they knew were lies, and it was done strictly for commercial gain. That is a key point in Dominion’s favor, big time.
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You might want to be a bit more cautious than CNN in taking Dominion’s allegations in a lawsuit as though they were proven fact.
But is it your position that FOX hosts should not have allowed guests who believed Trump’s claims to speak? If they did that, how would you tell them from The View?
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What about…
Those arguments show you have no case.
I wasn’t going just with allegations. These are quotes from depositions revealing texts and memos passed around FOX from executives as well as the whole FOX celebrity lineup.
The irony is that executives talked about “respecting” the audience. Lying to it is apparently considered respect among conservatives.
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Allowing people to speak, even when you believe them to be in error, seems like a difficult concept for you.
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Egad, another ad hominem. I must be onto something.
People can say what they want for the most part. But this case is about destroying an American company willingly, on purpose, with lies they knew to be lies, to make money.
So yes, they can spout crap all day, but if that damages another, then there are remedies, and Dominion is seeking just that. In this suit, we learned that FOX decided to push the fraud conspiracy because it was very profitable, yet none of the executives or personalities believed any of the tripe. The mocked it mercilessly in memos and texts. Then went on air to rile up the base with space laser stories.
If you think that is fine, so be it. Not very principled, in my opinion.
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Again, I am not accepting Dominion’s claims as truth.
I want to hear all sides and see what comes out in court when those claims are contested.
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It may never come out just for the reason I stayed earlier. Settlement.
But whatever you believe is what you believe. C’est la vie.
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No, I do not believe someone presenting themselves as a “news” station should KNOWINGLY give liars air time to spread their lies. But if they do, they should challenge those lies as the liar spouts them.
Not only did FOX not challenge what they KNEW were lies, they trashed their only fact-checker for hinting the lies weren’t true.
Freedom of speech does not include the freedom to yell “fire” in a crowded theater. And freedom of speech does not include the freedom to knowingly spread lies that lead to things like happened on January 6. And anybody who does either should be held accountable in a court of law.
They finally got Alex Jones. Sooner or later, they’ll get FOX “News.”
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They are BULL CRAP conspiracy spreader that have as much to do with what happened on January 6th as the man who led them down that path.
NPR doesn’t have a TV program. CNN FIRED one of their top primetime hosts because he had the temerity to assist his brother in how to defend himself in a scandal. MSNBC is so niche, I forgot what cable channel number they re on.
Spreading lies, KNOWINGLY, as if they are news shows how little journalistic integrity that network and its talking heads have.
Hannity calling for a reporter to be fired because she fact-check Trump? You are OK with that kind of behavior? Hannity was also advising Trump. If he had been at CNN advising Obama, he would have been CANNED.
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Of course, CNN was taking orders from Obama, not the other way around.
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Horse hockey. You are entitled to your opinion, but unless you can show where there was direct contact between Obama and Cuomo (or any other CNN talking head), then you are just attempting to blow smoke up the collective skirts on this forum.
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At the time I presented links to montages of CNN, NPR, MSNBC and the Networks all spouting Democrat talking points in EXACTLY the same language.
That does not happen by accident.
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Reporting quotes is NEWS, Don. what FOX’s heads were doing, under the guise of “opinion”, was spreading KNOWN lies. They knew they were lies. They said the Trump team, Kraken Lady and Rudy specifically, were NUTZ.
But you got your three unqualified – IMO -“originalists” on the Supreme Court. SO anything else is no biggie.
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Did the FOX commentators make those claims or allow their guests to do so?
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The right wing echo chamber wins the copy and paste exercise, hands down. There are stories that I have to wade through pages of search results before I get center or liberal sources.
As far as passing on talking points, both right wing, centrist and liberal organizations get press releases from the same sources. Nothing new or nefarious.
FOX just made their stories up, so I guess they were original.
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Don, forget it. Media has its faults, but FOX was not even credible or interested in truth by omission or commission. Its job was to be Trump’s campaign managers. This lawsuit and its discoveries are pretty damning proof. Wait till a jury hears how we have been duped for years. Of course, these suits will be settled. That is the modus operandi of wealthy criminals who get caught. Settle, seal the court records, then go find another crime to commit, another sucker to fleece or another election to steal. That has always worked for their esteemed leader.
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You have yet to address the FACTS that have come to light based on the text conversations of the Fox headliners. They KNEW what they opining on were LIES. You seem to be just fine with that.
No integrity, because of what Fox has been now PROVEN to have been doing is why there is so little trust in the media.
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You are more generous than I! I’d like to see the lot of ’em in jail for inciting riots and insurrection.
They KNEW what they were broadcasting was a lie. They KNEW it would divide and hurt the country. And they did it anyway. IMHO, they are every bit as responsible for January 6 as Trump is. Trump could only spread his lies for a few hours a day. FOX did it 24/7.
They have admitted they are not a news broadcast… even though they keep the word “news” in their title. They are entertainment for the dregs of society, the racists, the misogynists, the xenophobes. That is who they cater to. And they know it. And they’re still doing it.
To quote a FOX executive speaking of Lou Dobbs, “The North Koreans do a more nuanced show.”
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“Those fuckers are destroying our credibility. It enrages me,” Tucker Carlson wrote in a text message to his producer Alex Pfeiffer. Carlson worried Trump would “destroy” the network.
“What [Trump]’s good at is destroying things,” he told Pfeiffer. “He’s the undisputed world champion of that. He could easily destroy us if we play it wrong.”
https://www.businessinsider.com/fox-news-hosts-knew-election-conspiracy-theories-false-messages-dominion-2023-2?op=1
“Destroying our credibility”? What credibility? The folks who relied on FOX to affirm their conspiracies were the audience. And those election conspiracies were outright unicorns playing fantasy polo every hour of every day. Truth was the ball and FOX was the mallet.
And some folks say media is in bed with Democrats. Here is the biggest player in cable news, along with some Murdochian MSM print media, actually admitting that they will lie to make more money. And that the lies may destroy an American company is of no concern.
Until now, of course.
Considering all the links posted from FOX and its copiers, it is obvious to the casual observer that MAGA pols definitely don’t care about America at all. Destroy what they can to keep Trumpian revenues alive, and secretly laughing about it.
We have found the enemy, and it is them…Putin must have been so proud with his mole in the White House.
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“Here is the biggest player in cable news, along with some Murdochian MSM print media”…
Funny how those who disagree with you will NEVER admit that FOX and the Murdoch print empire is actually MSM. They talk all around it, but only non-Fox outlets, like the massively listened to NPR are MSM.
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Given that you can’t whine unless you are a victim.
Given that you can’t be a victim unless you are the little guy or underdog.
So the FOX brand is referred to as the David and everyone else is Goliath. The truth is that David is slinging cow pies, not smooth stones. Plus he is much bigger than his opponent.
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CNN’s story doesn’t report any actual lies that Fox News broadcast. At most it reports that on-air personalities read stories for the camera that didn’t reflect their personal beliefs.
I don’t know of any media outlet that should be regarded as a reliable source of Truth (with a capital “t”). Even Walter Cronkite never deserved to be called a Truth-teller. As a result, I don’t find this story to be compelling in any way.
Except, possibly, as a PR gimmick, shilling for CNN.
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“At most it reports that on-air personalities read stories “…
Wait one second, there Mr. Roberts. Don said specifically in his first comment “Those are opinion programs, not news.” So this begs the question: Were they doing news stories or opinion pieces?
Either way, they continued to spread the lies of a stolen election, whether or not they believed them to be true. The text messages prove they KNEW they were feeding the lies.
…”as a PR gimmick, shilling for CNN.”
I tried to use a link form a different source, but it wouldn’t load so I had to use the CNN link. But the facts are apparent to those not blinded by their love of a man over the country.
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RE: “Were they doing news stories or opinion pieces?”
It doesn’t matter.
RE: “Either way, they continued to spread the lies of a stolen election…”
How so? CNN doesn’t quote a single instance of Fox News calling the election stolen.
RE: “But the facts are apparent…”
What facts?
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“It doesn’t matter.”
According to Don, it does.
“CNN doesn’t quote a single instance of Fox News calling the election stolen.”
Just the talking heads EMPLOYED by Fox News.
“What facts?”
Sorry, but I am not a miracle worker. I cannot help the blind to see. Especially the blind who admit to being blind.
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RE: “According to Don, it does.”
I’m not Dr. Tabor.
RE: “Just the talking heads EMPLOYED by Fox News.”
Your CNN story doesn’t quote any of the talking heads calling the election stolen.
RE: “Sorry, but I am not a miracle worker. I cannot help the blind to see. ”
I have the same problem. You posted a story that doesn’t say what you think it says.
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“Your CNN story”..
As I said, I would have liked to use another source that was not paywalled, but it wouldn’t load. And seeing as I do not own CNN, or its Parent Warner, it is not MY story.
Yes, Dr. Counterfactual. You have proven once again that you only see what you want to see. Pick at nits that you don’t like, and that you have no MEMORY of what the Fox News talking heads were saying after the 2020 election.
Have you looked at any of your usual sources to assist in denying the story? Or are they not even mentioning it because it would show how idiotic they are as well, because they also assisted in spreading the “Big Lie.”
You and Brice Willis seem to be suffering from the same type of dementia.
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RE: “Have you looked at any of your usual sources to assist in denying the story?”
Don’t need to. There is nothing in the CNN story to deny, and no substance to any of the content it contains.
I do not assume that media outlets are truthful. Maybe you are having trouble here because you want to pretend that some are and some are not.
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Fine. Continue in your delusional world where all news is fake. Unless YOU post it.
“I do not assume that media outlets are truthful.
You are the one who isn’t truthful. When your “news” sources get called out for not being truthful, you CLAIM that you only posted it because it was “interesting and to spark discussion”.
This particular story is damning to Fox News, but you believe that it is a nothingburger. You are entitled to that. Just as much as I am entitled to tell you I think you rare full of poo.
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RE: “When your ‘news’ sources get called out for not being truthful, you CLAIM that you only posted it because it was ‘interesting and to spark discussion’.”
My experience is very different from that. I find that when you, in particular, criticize something I have posted, you are never able to justify your criticism. You often say my source is unreliable in some way, but you never seem able to explain why. You also accuse me of saying things I haven’t said, and then you are unable to quote my statements and explain why you disagree with them. Here, for example, you have both misquoted me and misrepresented my actual statement.
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“My experience is very different from that”
Then your memory is terrible. May I recommend Nuervia to improve it?
I have quoted you. And you deny it or say that isn’t what you have said. I have justified every single one of my criticisms, just not to your satisfaction. But most people don’t like to be criticized and will do or say anything to defend their words or actions.
I have justified my take on your sources every time. Once again you just don’t like the truth. Nor can you handle it.
I have NOT misquoted you are misrepresented anything. I have voiced my opinions about what you have said ad done now and in the past. You don’t like my comments on yours and try to justify your haughtiness and superiority with word salads.
You, sir, are a spreader of fertilizer who claims that by pissing on someone’s lawn, their grass will be greener.
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RE: “I have NOT misquoted you are misrepresented anything. ”
Yes, you have. I looked up your quotation of me in the current thread with the Forum’s search function. There is no record of the words you attribute to me on the site. I do, however, remember making the point to you once that the truth of a source that I base a post on may not be the primary reason I select the source to share. You try to make that out to be some sort of hypocrisy, but it isn’t.
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“ I do, however, remember making the point to you once that the truth of a source that I base a post on may not be the primary reason I select the source to share.”
So we are not supposed believe what you post, just what you opine? That seems a bit odd.
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I have NOT quoted you in the current thread, except to reply directly to what you have said.
There you go picking nits again.
“You try to make that out to be some sort of hypocrisy, but it isn’t.”
When you do the same thing to others it is the hypocrisy of which I speak.
Blind man’s bluff?
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The Wall Street Journal has reported on the issue
The issue seems to be statements made by Sydney Powell and Rudi Giuliani as guests on the programs, not reporting by FOX itself.
So, are opinion programs supposed to censor their newsworthy guests? Where does that lead?
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Allowing known lies to go unchallenged is journalistic malpractice. Laughing along with the guests and nodding knowingly is akin to spreading the lies.
However, the lawsuit is about Fox News’ defamation of Dominion. ANd hosts not named Hannity, Carlson, and Ingraham DID.
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Let me know when that standard is applied to Karine Jean-Pierre by the Network prerss
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What lies is she spreading? And who isn’t challenging things she says that require challenging.
What about, what about, what about.
Don’t get me started on Kayleigh, Huck-Sands and the unchallenged lies they told for 4 years.
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They can say whatever they want.
Dominion may have some issues when they are slandered for ratings, profit and “respecting the audience”. I guess you are saying Dominion should just shut up and absorb the losses to reputation and business.
It is not the government that is challenging FOX, so freedom of speech is not the issue as guaranteed in the First Amendment.
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Certainly Dominion has the right to sue, though suing FOX for what a guest says is going to be tough sledding.
They might want to consider what will come out in discovery.
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Lou Dobbs and Jeannie Perrio. They did spread the lies.
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Did they say anything from personal knowledge, or did they quote Powell?
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Doesn’t matter. Especially if they did not attribute statements or refute. Or use the Carlson method of “just asking the question?”.
You seem to be just fine with lies that lead to crimes being committed], as long as those crimes are committed on behalf of your beliefs.
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Experience shows us that it is when speech is suppressed that crimes happen.
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Who is calling for suppression of speech? I suggested moving the three headed dog that is Fox News’ evening hosts should be MOVED to another network, not suppressed. They can spread their lies along with other fictional stories on the Fox network.
And while free speech is protected by the First Amendment, NOT challenging lies, known to be lies, is journalistic malpractice. If a doctor told you that the tumor on your left butt cheek was just an ingrown hair, you would be suing his butt off (pun intended) when you found out that you only had six months to live. Allowing the Big Lie to spread and feeding into the defamation of Dominion (and Semnantic) is malpractice.
Chris Cuomo got FIRED by CNN because he was assisting his brother in addressing his scandals. Allowing the lies and defamation to spread has kept those three, plus others, employed by Fix ews.
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They are not suing for what a
guest says. It is the drumbeat of voter fraud repeated nightly by the prime time folks, based on conspiracies heavily touted by Giuliani and friends. This included the conspiracy that Dominion helped rig the counts.
What came out as a surprise was that the celebrities mocked the conspirators among themselves. And that executives said they need to “respect” their audience by not debunking. And this is what FOX news reporter did and was forced to delete her postings. Carlson demanded she be fired or Trump would destroy FOX.
So profit was the motive for lying about Dominion even when they knew it was bats**t crazy.
I think Dominion has a good case.
I think Ruby Freeman has a good case too. Her life and her daughter’s are on hold and in hiding because Trump said they committed fraud in GA as poll workers in 2020. And he just repeated that slur recently.
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FOX’s motto is “We report, you decide.”
They do not contradict their guests. Democrats either.
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You must have been a good dancer because you sure are tap dancing here, IMO.
If an opinion piece said Dr. Tabor, DDS has sex with his patients when they are anesthetized and allow no rebuttal by you, and you found that they were just protecting their brand because the audience believes it, do you ignore that? Contradicting guests or not, you might be upset particularly if you lost patients. But a few disgruntled ex-patients were reporting this lie and the station went with it because of the transgender issue getting heat for grooming. Ads sell, and the promoters of the Tabor story aired nightly even though they knew it was false.
No analogy is perfect, but I imagine you would not be a happy dentist.
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No, I would sue the person who said it, not those who reported what was said.
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Powell and Rudy are being sued. Fox is caught in their web because they allowed the lies to spread without challenge. Other news organizations discussed the allegations and statements by Powell and Giuliani and immediately called them what they were: Scurrilous lies. Or stated there was no evidence supporting those claims.
“We have theories, but no evidence.” Remember that little gem?
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They also called the Great Barrington Resolution and Judith Curry liars.
And yet both turned out to have a lot of truth in them. It is not the job of the media to be the arbiters of truth.
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So what is the job of the media?
Fishing reports and weather? Sports scores?
Or keeping a close eye on corruption and crimes of governments and the powerful with certain protections from prosecution as enshrined in the Constitution?
Trick question, of course. Free speech and press apply to all Americans and covers all topics. But when attacking private interests, there is a liability question.
Also, here is the irony. If a media publishes reports that are proven false, the search for truth becomes part of the challenge.
FOX knew the truth, but a effort for keeping the lie alive was intense.
This is why Dominion and Smartmatic are suing in addition to trying to regain their reputation.
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When there are facts to be reported, with sufficient proof that they are willing to stand by them in court if need be, then simply report those facts.
Where there is controversy, report both sides without bias, and let the public decide.
But it is not the media’s job to decide which side of a controversy is correct and then suppress dissent.
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“Good evening. We have more about the pedophile dentist after a word from our sponsors.”
“Alleged pedophile, Dr. Tabor…”.
“More patients have come forward in the dentist pedophile case…”
Now if each one of those was a lie, and your business was over and you had to hire a lawyer you might consider why the station is pounding you daily. And if you found out that they are doing it for ratings, a reporter debunked the case but was reprimanded and shut up, and the personalities also knew it was false and laughed about it, well I imagine Don might be upset.
Or you might just shrug and say it’s free speech, so I’m good with it. Then put a sign on your door saying “I am not a pedophile.”
Or you can try tap dancing.
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If they reported “Len Rothman claims…” then I would sue you.
If they simply reported it unattributed, I would sue them.
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Like I said, all parties are getting sued.
Reckless disregard for the truth is among the limits of a free press regarding liability.
“In New York Times v. Sullivan, the Supreme Court ruled that in order for a public official to be successful in proving a libel claim the statements must have been made with “actual malice.” This concerns the state of mind of the alleged defamer, it must be shown that the statements were made with reckless disregard for the truth, that the defamer had doubts to the truth of the statement but did not check further before publishing.”
https://odinlaw.com/can-i-sue-for-libel/
At the very least, this applies here. Except FOX didn’t have doubts, they knew that it was all a lie and pursued the defamatory comments for profit. They would lose audience if they told the truth and said so clearly and forcefully among the celebrities and their executives behind the scenes.
Same with your pedophilia case. If the station knew you were not diddling anesthetized patients, that it was all a lie by pissed ex-patients, yet continued to defame you regularly, they would certainly be liable.
So both you and Dominion, et. al, have strong cases.
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If FOX reported “Dominion rigged the election.” and knew that was not the case, then libel would apply to FOX.
If FOX reported “Trump lawyer Sydney Powell claims Dominion rigged the election.” Then if that is what Powell said, FOX has no liability unless they went further and said they had checked Powells claims and they were true.
Truth is a prima face defense against libel, and if they accurately reported a quote, as a quote, that is the truth.
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We will see how the courts decide. Dominion is suing for 1.6 billion and Smartmatic about 2.8
billion. If airing stories that they knew were false to keep ratings up, that is certainly a flagrant disregard for the truth. I think the voting companies have a very strong case.
Per Sullivan v. NYT:
“it must be shown that the statements were made with reckless disregard for the truth, that the defamer had doubts to the truth of the statement but did not check further before publishing.”
I think FOX knows that these internal memos are a smoking gun and that regurgitating the lies night after night, with or without guests, knowing they were not true was a huge mistake.
Remember, Dominion was not just mentioned as a problem in the election. They were accused of shifting votes via software. That is a major accusation of fraud and criminal activity. Ignoring evidence for profit is not a good excuse either.
This goes beyond bias and into the realm of collusion to steal the election, IMO.
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They don’t challenge them either. Journalistic malpractice. -IMO
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