This discussion took place on live state television in Russia. Some of the participants stuck to the party line about purging the Ukraine of Nazis but others were brave enough to speak the truth – there will be no easy victory as they were promised going in. And, if it becomes a global war, Russia will lose.
The not so latent threat from the bearded Putin supporter is quite chilling to watch. As is the implied threat of a nuclear attack on Ukraine by the moderator. One hopes that Nadezhdin and Olevich do not get defenestrated as many others have been for failing to support Putin.
Tidewater News and Opinion Forum 
Russia is using high priced mercenaries and prisoners for cannon fodder. It apparently is negotiating for ammunition from N.Korea.
And they are retreating from territory held since the invasion.
Saving face is now the biggest trick to pull out of a ragged top hat.
Early on a negotiated treaty over Donbas might have been even thinkable. Not now. The butchery by Putin and his savages cannot be ignored. And it won’t be. The hatred of Russia is palpable by the deepest reaches in Ukraine.
What could have been a wary, but workable, relationship with Ukraine and its agricultural, mineral, manufacturing and technical richness is now in the proverbial toilet.
Modern day Vlad the Impaler has stuck himself on a pole.
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Exactly what reality is sinking in with this post?
After six months of continual losses, Ukraine achieved its first successful counteroffensive. Russian pundits are divided in their assessment of the significance of the event. The military question at hand is whether the counteroffensive represents a tactical or a strategic gain. And the truth is, we won’t know the answer to that question for several weeks.
In the meantime, western sanctions on Russian energy are destroying the economies of Europe, with harmful effects on the U.S. American taxpayers should be asking whether they want to pay for both the war in Ukraine and the humanitarian aid for Europe that this winter will require.
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None so blind as those who will not see.
Exactly what reality is sinking in with this post?
The reality sinking in is that the criminal invasion of Ukraine was a blunder of historic proportions and even in Russia – where telling the truth can cost you your life – people are now saying so in public.
I find it both remarkable and laughable how the same people who are blind to Trump’s over-the-top criminality are also the ones who are unquestioningly supportive of Putin’s failing fascist regime.
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RE: “The reality sinking in is that the criminal invasion of Ukraine was a blunder of historic proportions and even in Russia – where telling the truth can cost you your life – people are now saying so in public.”
The most blind are those who see what they wish to see, not what is there. You want to see a “great awakening” of public opinion in Russia, and so you do.
As I said, Ukraine has accomplished its first military gain since the beginning of the war. This could be the first of many successes to come, or it could be the last success Ukraine will ever have. Anyone who claims to know which doesn’t know what he is talking about.
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Your heated and emotional reaction to the simple truth is very telling. And so is your baseless personal attack. I made no claim of any special knowledge – I posted a link to RUSSIANS discussing the war on RUSSIAN television. Whether you are too enamored of Putin to see it or not, it takes real personal courage to speak the truth in Russia.
It is beyond obvious that you people simply cannot handle the truth when it runs counter to what you really, really, really want to believe. In this case you really want to believe that Putin’s aggression will be a success and six months worth of Russian failure will not shake you from that belief.
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RE: “I posted a link to RUSSIANS discussing the war on RUSSIAN television.”
Which you characterize as illustrating Russia’s “blunder of historic proportions.” There is, however, no evidence to support your interpretation.
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When Russian’s dissent in any way, they risk prison, poisoning or “disappearing”. The fact that some are taking that risk to say what they think shows a bit of evidence that even a conspiracy monger such as yourself should consider .
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RE: “The fact that some are taking that risk to say what they think shows a bit of evidence that even a conspiracy monger such as yourself should consider.”
No thanks. Dissident opinion in Russia is not as uncommon as you imagine.
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“Dissident opinion in Russia is not as uncommon as you imagine.”
Didn’t say it was uncommon; I just stated that those who dissent are taking a very big risk with their lives.
Or is my claim not enough of a conspiracy for your tastes?
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“There is, however, no evidence to support your interpretation.”
Except the facts on the ground as reported by these well-placed Russian observers. Facts which you do your best to ignore.
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RE: “Facts which you do your best to ignore.”
The only facts at hand are the ones I have already acknowledged: “After six months of continual losses, Ukraine achieved its first successful counteroffensive. Russian pundits are divided in their assessment of the significance of the event.”
You seem to think they herald some fundamental change in world affairs. I say they are insufficient to support any such hypothesis.
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RE: “I just stated that those who dissent are taking a very big risk with their lives.”
Yeah. Vladamir Putin is Boris Badenov.
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Boris Badenov.
Funny stuff!
https://tinyurl.com/4he9xv8h
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55694598
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And yet, according to you and Mr. Green, Putin’s critics risked their lives by expressing their opinions on a state-run TV show. Your narrative makes about as much sense as cartoon physics.
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You seriously believe that Putin is OK with his journalists criticizing him and his actions?
The naivete is palpable.
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EXACTAMUNDO!
And, if pressed the Russians have nuclear capability. Ukraine remains a huge underdog. Europe will suffer this winter and by default we will pay too.
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A slightly less hyperbolic take on the discussion at hand.
https://www.thebulwark.com/ukraines-momentum-putins-fears/
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This isn’t a football game with teams to cheer.
Our propping up Ukraine has cost tens of thousands of lives, and pushed Russia into the arms of China and Iran. The harm done to world peace incalculable
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“The harm done to world peace incalculable”
The well-established pattern continues. People blind to Trump’s criminality are also cheerleaders for the murderous fascist dictator, Putin. All we had to do was let him gobble up neighboring countries. Then we could have “peace for our time.”
For someone who never tires promising to do battle with tyranny, you are quick to throw actual fighters against it under the bus. Ukraine’s success is coming from their will to defend their homes against fascist invaders. They deserve our help in that fight if they ask for it. They are fighting for what we say we believe in.
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Freedom fighters? You can’t be that naive.
Remember that the people of the Donbas and Crimea are ethnic Russians and want to be part of Russia. If anything, Russia came to the aid of freedom fighters.
But what do you think a Ukrainian victory would look like? Simply a pogrom to take the property of the ethnic Russians there and eject them, or full on genocide?
The blood shed so far to keep the Donbas and Crimea under Ukrainian dominance and the reprisals to come are on Biden’s hands.
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….” and want to be part of Russia.”
Proof that Putin’s propaganda works in this country. You have bought, hook, line and sinker, the lie that ALL of Donbas and Crimea DESIRE to be under Russian control. The fact that a large percentage of those who “voted” in a truly rigged election means nothing to you. Those who did NOT want Russian control were either to afraid to vote or knew that the vote was a sham because of the Russian stooges running the election.
Dominance? How about sovereign control as a nation?
Ukrainians have been transported out of THEIR homes to Russian “camps”. You seem to either think that is OK or that ONLY the Ukrainian government does it. Foolish, pro-Putin statements.
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So, now you’re an election denier too?
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I’ll leave that to you and Mr. Roberts. What I am a denier of is the lies that you continue to throw out there anytime this conversation comes up.
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Yet you deny the plebiscite
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I deny that you know anything about the REAL people of that region; not just the MINORITY who want to be part of Russia.
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“Remember . . . ”
That is a tell that you are about to share some bullshit. This is not an exception.
SOME of the people in Donbas are ethnic Russians and SOME of those would prefer life in the failing fascist remnant of the USSR than to live in freedom and be part of the far more vibrant European economy. Those who feel that way had a clear option – move to Russia. Instead, with Putin’s Sudetenland-style support, they chose civil war against the lawful government.
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Wow, your hero worship for the stooge of Ukrainian oligarchs is endless.
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“Wow, your hero worship for the stooge of Ukrainian oligarchs is endless.”
Now, you are just embarrassing yourself. Again. You are doing that a lot lately. Is that because you sense the law and reality closing in on your heroes – Trump and Putin?
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You really don’t see the “wag the dog”
OK, explain why Zelensky has worn an olive green t-shirt for all occasions for the whole time. Ukraine has waged a clumsy PR campaign since before the invasion, and you and others have so much hate in you for Russia that you blind yourself to the ruse.
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I have no hatred of Russia or Russians. I hate fascist dictators. Doubly so when they criminally start a war. I want them to fail. I want their people to rise up and throw off their shackles. I want truth to prevail over lies.
You will have to explain the “thought” – if any – behind your comment about the choice to wear military fatigues and the “wag the dog?”
And, by the way, Donbas is ethnically Ukrainian. Russians came later and have never been the majority. I have given you chapter and verse on this fact before. Always a waste of effort.
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“But what do you think a Ukrainian victory would look like?”
A return to its sovereign borders prior to the annexation of Crimea in 2014. Maybe Russia could get a 99 year lease on its Crimea naval base a la Guantanamo Bay.
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Ukrainians are defending their homeland. We have never had to do that, so our understanding of why Ukraine did not just roll over to become part of Putin’s kingdom is limited.
Kudos to Zelensky for realizing his strengths, the Ukrainian people and soldiers, and weaknesses, weapons and ammunition. Then using his skills to get support from the outside.
Ukraine has been fighting the Russian army and it’s proxy in Donbas since 2014. Eight years they have held a brutal dictatorship at bay. They know full well what it takes to win and what pride in country can do to tip the scales.
Seeing the aftermath of fleeing Russians from the newly recaptured territories, Ukraine was right to fight. Treatment of the civilians by the Russian occupiers was a crime of devastating proportion.
Think of the Civil War. You have always supported the right of the South to defend what they called their homeland. And had they received foreign assistance, they might have prevailed. But the South did not have a “product” to sell for assistance since slavery was not popular in Europe. Ukraine had Putin to market.
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The ethnic Russians who live in the Donbas see Zelensky as the brutal dictator. They are fighting for their freedom
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You know this how?
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The plebiscites and the reports of pogroms over the last 30 years. Remember that these provinces have been trying to break away long before Russia came in.
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The Putin backed lying machine?
Your 30 year timeline is a lie. Zelensky hasn’t been in power that long and before him was a string of Putin stooges.
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