Republican populism, vaccinations and DeSantis.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-policy/2021/06/08/republicans-business-desantis-cruise/

DeSantis sign executive orders and legislative bill to prevent cruise lines from requiring vaccinations for crew and passengers.

“Del Rio ( Norwegian Cruise Lines Holding CEO) told investors that federal law will likely override DeSantis’s refusal to permit businesses to require proof of vaccination. But if it does not, Norwegian may move its ships from Miami to the Caribbean.” Gosh, between tariffs and other anti-business moves, which party is trying to control the means of production.

The article is about the new found populism in the GOP. Hawley (“raised fist approval of 1/6 assault guy”) pushing $15 minimum wages through a federal bill he is sponsoring among other anomalies of the “new” Republican message.

Better than Dr. Seuss whining, I suppose.

37 thoughts on “Republican populism, vaccinations and DeSantis.

  1. RE: “DeSantis sign executive orders and legislative bill to prevent cruise lines from requiring vaccinations for crew and passengers.”

    The article is paywalled to me, but I agree with DeSantis’s policy in principle.

    Vaccinated and naturally immune people, at least, should be treated the same. So, until there is an easy way for naturally immune people to prove their status, vaccinated people should not get special privileges.

    I also believe that the vaccines for Covid are insufficiently well understood to justify mandating their use. One can make a strong public health argument for allowing and encouraging Covid vaccination, but not for mandating it.

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    1. DeSantis and those who cheerlead for him are absolutely full of shit. Norwegian Cruise Line has the Constitution and the science on their side.

      Naturally immune people can get vaccinated. It’s free. It’s safe. And there is evidence that the immunity it provides is better than the natural kind.

      Coincidentally, I have recently booked a cruise on Norwegian for later this summer. I would not have done so had I not been promised that every person on that ship will have proof of vaccination. So NCL is following the science (a vaccinated ship is a safe ship), they are within their rights to run their private business as they wish, and they also understand what the market demands of them.

      Liked by 1 person

    2. No shirt, no shoes, no vaccine, no mask NO SERVICE. Bye, Felicia.

      Private businesses can and do make safety rules to protect their customers and staff. Desantis (and Robinson (I think) in Texas) have no standing to prevent those cruise lines from operating in the best way they can. ANd the cruise lines can go elsewhere. Maybe Norfolk should market itself a little more. Unless of course the market needs controlled again.

      But that ain’t Libertarian thinking, now is it.

      Liked by 1 person

        1. Nope. Titered is the correct term.

          It refers to testing a series of dilutions to see at what level the antibodies become undetectable. The more you have to dilute to reach that point, the stronger the original sample was.

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          1. Thank you. I hadn’t heard of the term before.

            Would that testing be fast enough, using the cruise ship story, to allow for passengers to be tested prior to boarding and thus be proved to have the natural immunity?

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  2. There no government mandate to require vaccinations for a cruise. If, however, the private cruise company want to apply the best policy in their view for the health and safety of their passengers and crew, why does the state have to demand otherwise.

    Liked by 2 people

    1. RE: “If, however, the private cruise company want to apply the best policy in their view for the health and safety of their passengers and crew, why does the state have to demand otherwise.”

      For the same reason that private companies can’t execute recalcitrant employees. That would be a violation of employees’ unalienable rights.

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      1. Employers set conditions of employment regularly. They can’t execute them,but the can be terminated. Just ask the ATC’s during Reagan’s presidency. Your argument has zero basis in fact and even less in merit.

        If the employee does not want to meet those conditions, they can work elsewhere. At least that is what we keep being told about those who don’t want to work for crap wages.

        Liked by 1 person

          1. “The cruise line doesn’t have an unalienable right to prevent me from going on a cruise, either.”

            Now THAT is just nonsense. Of course they have every right to conduct their business as they see fit for the safety of their passengers and to make a profit. Your whine is contrary to the principles that “conservatives” say the stand for. You want the government to step in and force them to accept your business? What happened to let the market decide.

            Cruise lines have ALWAYS had health standards for their passengers. I have taken several and you have to fill out a health questionaire and certify that you are free of illness. They also do temperature screenings. They have good reason for such standards since a cruise ship is a closed environment where any contagion can spread rapidly.

            Anti-vaxxers are not a protected class under our anti-discrimiation law and they should not be. Whatever discrimination or opprobium they suffer by refusing to get vaccinated they bring on themselves with the stupidity of their selfish behavior.

            Liked by 1 person

          2. RE: “Cruise lines have ALWAYS had health standards for their passengers.”

            Good for them. The Covid vaccines, however, are a new technology never used before and of uncertain safety. No one has the right to require taking one.

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          3. Since immunity is easily, safely and economically available society SHOULD bifurcate on that basis. You have no fundamental right to CHOOSE to be a pariah without being treated as a pariah.

            Your “more practical approach” is utter nonsense. If a cruise line were to follow such a policy they would not sell enough tickets to stay in business.

            Liked by 1 person

          4. “No one has the right to require taking one.”

            Where do you even get such an idea? You have no right – none – to step on a cruise ship, an airplane or any place of business without complying with whatever requirements for health, safety, dress or conduct that the private operators of such establishments wish to enforce. This is so fundamental that you are really throwing your bona fides as a “conservative” into doubt.

            Liked by 1 person

          5. RE: “Where do you even get such an idea?”

            Simple. It is like the 5th Amendment or the right of self defense.

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          6. “Simple. It is like the 5th Amendment or the right of self defense.”

            Let’s see if I have this. A cruise line cannot be allowed BY THE GOVERNMENT (of Florida in this case) to refuse your business even if you will not comply with their boarding requirements. And why is that? Because you have a Constitutional right or even a natural right to go on a cruise if you want to.

            Look deep inside and tell us how that makes any sense.

            And never mind the baker who you have said in the past can refuse to sell a cake for a wedding that he doesn’t approve of. The baker can run his business the way he wants but NCL cannot?

            Liked by 1 person

  3. A cruise line should certainly be able to charge $5million dollars for a cabin, but offer a $4,995,000 discount to those who can show proof of immunity to COVID.

    However, either vaccination or a high titer antibody test should suffice. There is no practical difference between vaccination and recovery from infection.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. “However, either vaccination or a high titer antibody test should suffice. There is no practical difference between vaccination and recovery from infection.”

      Whatever “should suffice,” a for-profit company is absolutely free to require whatever it wants. As a customer I am far more leary of a ship full of tested people vs a ship full of vaccinated people. Maybe NCL’s market research told them I am not alone.

      “There is no practical difference between vaccination and recovery from infection.”
      One practical difference between vaccination and infection is that we have a more-or-less agreed way of documenting effective vaccinations and no way of documenting actual effective cases of the virus.

      And correct me if I am wrong but I believe the technology of the vaccines provides protection against a range of variants while a past infection is more restricted to the strain experienced. There is at least some uncertainty on this point so I know of no reason – now that vaccines are going begging – to not get the shot even after having experienced what was diagnosed (accurately hopefully) to be a case of Covid.

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      1. Actually, it’s just the opposite.

        The resistance to reinfection after recovery has about 9 months more data.

        The vaccines are genetically engineered to create a replica of the spike protein. They are well engineered to express a number of different locations on that protein, so a mutation in one site does not negate the effectiveness of the vaccine.

        Natural immunity does the same thing with regard to the spike protein but it also results in antibodies to other exposed proteins on the virus particle and to cells infected by the virus.

        So, a realistic comparison would be that the vaccine produces a very strong, tightly focused response while infection results in a wider if less intense response.

        In practical terms there isn’t much difference clinically. Either will protect you for at least a year and probably for life.

        From the virus’s point of view, it’s the difference between being shot in the heart with a rifle or shot in the chest with buckshot.

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          1. Your 2nd cite is from December, before the vaccines were even available to the public, the first was updated in April. We have had a lot more experience with natural immunity than vaccines, and the knowledge is evolving rapidly.

            See

            https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/lasting-immunity-found-after-recovery-covid-19

            Note the cellular immunity influence which cannot be measured by antibodies. Cellular immunity is the key to long duration and there is reason to believe it may well be permanent.

            The current opinion is that the vaccines provide a strong, focused antibody response, experience will show how well they hold up on cellular immunity. I suspect they will prove strong there too.

            But natural immunity remains reliable, complete and long lasting.

            There is really no reason to differentiate between naturally acquired immunity and vaccine induced immunity. We really won’t know which, if either, will prove to be better for at least another year.

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          1. “Defensive medicine at its finest.”

            Or just good advice since there is no reason to think harm will follow and some reason to think that immunity will be enhanced.

            The fact that you ALWAYS attribute base motives to others with no evidence but your imagination reflects the sad state of your “conservative” soul. IMHO.

            Liked by 1 person

    2. RE: “A cruise line should certainly be able to charge $5 million dollars for a cabin, but offer a $4,995,000 discount to those who can show proof of immunity to COVID.”

      That’s a creative solution, but if one industry could do it, so could others. Via the slippery slope, all of society would eventually bifurcate on the basis of immunity.

      A more practical approach would be to rely on shipboard quarantine and therapeutic protocols in the event of a Covid outbreak at sea.

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      1. RE: “Private enterprises should be able to offer a safe environment where masking is no longer necessary and contact is OK.”

        I believe, somewhat incompetently perhaps, that the standard protocol I described offers sufficient safety. We have some experience with shipboard outbreaks of Covid. None that I know of turned into super spreader events.

        The question you raise is really a philosophical one: To what extent can a business control its customers’ experience? I support keeping government out of it, but allowing private companies to implement “vaccine passports” is in itself an intrusive action with consequences. A “you can’t do that” rule would be less intrusive.

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        1. “None that I know of turned into super spreader events.

          Because they were contained to the ships. Remember how 45 did not want cruise ships to return because they would alter the numbers and make him look bad? (Not that he needed any assistance.)

          And I find it somewhat amusing that those who constantly defend the market against government interference is standing up for a government interfering in a business.

          H-Y-P-…

          Liked by 1 person

      2. Since immunity is easily, safely and economically available society SHOULD bifurcate on that basis. You have no fundamental right to CHOOSE to be a pariah without being treated as a pariah.

        Your “more practical approach” is utter nonsense. If a cruise line were to follow such a policy they would not sell enough tickets to stay in business.

        Liked by 1 person

        1. RE: “You have no fundamental right to CHOOSE to be a pariah without being treated as a pariah.”

          Nor do you have any fundamental right to despise, avoid, or force anyone into exile.

          RE: “If a cruise line were to follow such a policy they would not sell enough tickets to stay in business.”

          It is no one’s job to keep the cruise line in business.

          Like

          1. It’s official – you have lost your mind. Why? I suppose it is because you refuse to be vaccinated but do not want to lose any privileges for making that choice. Sorry. Life does not work that way. Freedom of choice includes the consequences of whatever choices you make. Sorry you cannot come on the cruise but THAT is your choice.

            Both your claims above are evidence that you have lost your mind.

            1. Everyone has a fundamental right to despise or avoid anyone they choose. And nobody is suggesting that anyone be forced into exile.

            2. “It is no one’s job to keep the cruise line in business.”
              LOL! Except the managers entrusted by the shareholders to keep that cruise line in business.

            Liked by 1 person

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