Remedies?

OK, let’s think about what to do about it if President Trump prevails in court?

I know many of you will reject the premise, but for the sake of examining what is right, assume that in one or more States, the expansion of mail in votes is shown to have been a violation of either the State or Federal Constitution and the results of the election cannot be certified.  It then falls to the State legislature to choose the State’s electors. What is the right thing for them to do?

They could simply act in a partisan manner without regard to the votes and it would be lawful, but would it be right? I don’t think so.

But simply validating an unlawful election would be just as wrong.

As I see it, the Votes fall into 4 categories.

  • Lawful votes
  • Fraudulent votes such as harvested votes from the dead, senile, or non-residents.
  • Unlawful votes cast in good faith by voters simply wanting to avoid COVID
  • Unlawful votes cast by uninterested legal voters pressured by organizers

I think we can agree that lawful votes should be respected but with fraudulent votes mixed in with the lawful votes, legislators can only guess at how many of those there were, guided by mathematicians,  and thus not to be considered in their deliberations.

But the last two categories bother me.

I think the votes of those who cast votes by mail thinking it was legal should be respected by the legislators.

But I also think that the votes of those who would not, under normal, non-COVID circumstances, have bothered to vote and who did so only because an organizer shoved a ballot under their face don’t really deserve consideration. After all, the legislatures did not write the original, lawful codes, to chase down reluctant voters.

With all the lawful and unlawful, good faith and  recruited, votes mingled inseparably, there is no way to count the different categories. The legislators can only make good faith estimates of the numbers in each category and vote based on their perception of the will of the engaged voters.

14 thoughts on “Remedies?

  1. RE: “As I see it, the Votes fall into 4 categories.”

    There is a 5th category: paper ballots fraudulently produced/processed to “validate” electronic tabulations.

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  2. RE: “It then falls to the State legislature to choose the State’s electors. What is the right thing for them to do?”

    I see no good option or approach. That being the case, the best thing to do is to compete the selection of the electors: Let the legislatures “act in a partisan manner without regard to the votes,” as you say.

    There’s a principle in political science called Arrow’s Impossibility Theorem which holds that “No voting system can establish social preferences by aggregating individual preferences.”

    https://mises.org/wire/why-voting-doesnt-tell-us-what-voters-really-want

    Per Arrow’s theorem, we can’t know what voters really want in any case. In effect, even a “perfect” election must be an “imperfect” reflection of the will of the people.

    Given this unavoidable imperfection as a starting point, I’m OK with the legislatures choosing the electors directly in an otherwise invalid presidential race. We should just be thankful that the Constitution foresaw this contingency and arranged for resolution by representatives who are themselves elected.

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    1. I have to admit that the lies from Trump have their intended effect.

      Both you and Don have declared the election invalid or stolen as if it were are matter of fact.

      And yet there is no evidence that this is the case.

      That Trump has gone past trying to prove the big lie. He is relying now on intimidation, extortion and probable bribery via the power of his office and his cult status.

      I find this undying acceptance of such lies astonishingly ignorant. Yet, to a disturbing degree, understandable.

      Trump is praised by his followers for breaking norms. Yet norms are the essential part of any society to keep it civilized. There is nothing in the Constitution that demands concession in elections. Yet the 250 years of peaceful transfer of power is greatly dependent upon norms. That is what separates the Western democratic institutions from lesser developing nations. And we were the seawall for those governments against the rushing tide of autocratic rule.

      Now we are at best a laughingstock and at worst a legitimate stepping stone to rule by fiat, the definition not the car.

      Pursuing some court cases in close elections is not outside the norm. Extorting loyalty to overturn elections is the red flag and should be a warning to all who truly care about our nation more than blind allegiance to a cult leader.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. RE: “And yet there is no evidence that this is the case.”

        You mean no evidence you are willing to consider or accept. Maybe this summary will help:

        https://thomisticthinker.com/skeptical-of-voter-fraud-in-2020-heres-your-evidence/

        Personally, I find the statistical analyses — several of which I posted here in the Forum — compelling. They show what happened. The lawsuits and inquiries in the state legislatures will tell us how it happened.

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        1. Dozens of lawsuits and not one had any evidence of massive voter fraud. None. Zip.

          “Inquiries at state legislatures” are not investigative. They are blatant attempts at extortion via the fear of losing office or hurting future political aspirations. Fear of the Trump bludgeon of chicken poop attacks, lies and slander that are sucked up by his fans through a drainage pump from an endless, virtual septic tank full of them.

          Enough Republican voters kept their Congressional and state representatives, but were fed up with Trump’s con acts. There in lies the real reason why he was tossed out.

          Liked by 1 person

          1. And still Biden won, but down ballot Democrats lost.

            I have no illusions that Trump fans will ever acknowledge the defeat of the “messiah” since life without Trump is inconceivable.

            Liked by 1 person

          2. Len, only your life and happiness, and that of your fellow Democrats, depend on winning an election.

            But you lust get very tired moving those goal posts. You claimed Trump voters abandoned him, yet he got 10 million more votes.

            And Trumps were from live people, who knew who they were voting for, and living in the State where they voted.

            If there is really no fraud, then why the desperation to avoid the cases coming to trial?

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          3. Ah, the old “if you are innocent…” gambit.

            Perhaps because lawsuit after lawsuit has turned up nothing. No, there is no fraud. Then why keep pursuing the cases?

            Friday will here, again, test the validity of the legislation about mail in ballots. The law says it will determine the method of voting and how electors are selected. And it did.

            No goal posts have been moved. That is another lie. Trumps legal team is changing the story every day to file suits that have already been ruled on by withholding bits and pieces to seem like fresh evidence.

            Remember that Trump said if he did not win, the election was rigged. Long before the election, BTW. You believed that based on no evidence, so why would you change your mind?

            Liked by 1 person

          4. Biden got 14+ million more votes than Hillary.

            So what’s your point?

            What made the race even remotely tight, especially down ballot, was the GOP ground game. And of course such fear tactics as open borders, defunding police and lies about socialism. The last is so ridiculous and tells me that most have not a clue what socialism is.

            Trump’s actions are much more in tune with trying to control the means of production via tariffs and blatant extortion of American businesses.

            Liked by 1 person

        2. Re: link to Heritage Foundation data on fraud in elections.

          About 1200 cases and 1100 convictions.

          This is over 3 years. Estimating 300 million ballots cast, more if it includes 2016 election, but 2017 convictions.

          In other words, zip. For that matter, massive fraud was perpetrated by the Republicans in 2018 with Taylor and the NC congressional race. Felony convictions and an expensive redo on the election.

          But then, with just the normal safeguards, the perps were caught, so justice and accuracy prevailed.

          Add in gerrymandering, voter disenfranchisement, fewer polling sites/machines in Democrat districts, phony purging of legitimate voters, etc, etc.. Plus the mishmash of voter ID regs. As the federal judge admonished in NC after a blatant attempt to rig elections, minorities were affected “with surgical precision”.

          Republicans know they cannot win without cheating. So they do. And Trump also knows that a peaceful transition means crap to him. He is in a reality show, and if he tears the country to shreds, he could not care less.

          Liked by 1 person

      2. Some of the early morning vote counting patterns have been described by mathematicians as being like flipping a coin and having it turn up heads 100 times in a row.

        When you have 140,000 ballots discovered at 3AM, and every single one for Biden, that is just outside belief.

        https://www.wnd.com/2020/11/mathematical-evidence-election-stolen/

        Add to that, Democrats are acting like they have been caught with their hands in the cookie jar, trying to rush the process to preclude examination of the evidence.

        So, yes, I believe this is a successful steal.

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        1. Like I said, you are part of the cult, wittingly or not.

          That WND assertion is BS.

          https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/nov/10/facebook-posts/election-workers-didnt-find-biden-votes-overnight-/

          I can’t believe that you are just parroting the lies. Do you have any curiosity about the crap you are relying on for “facts”?

          People were up all night counting ballots. Particularly in those states that did not allow processing of absentee, early and mail-in voting.

          Sad and kind of shameful.

          Liked by 1 person

        2. RE: “That WND assertion is BS.”

          Not necessarily. Note that your Politifact article factchecks a Facebook post, but the WND piece references non-Facebook sources. Your evidence has an apples-to-oranges comparison problem, whatever the validity of the WND piece might be.

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