I’ve been warned more than once lately that Russian propaganda cannot be believed. In fact, I’ve been told that any information that seems to support a Russian propaganda talking point must be rejected out of hand, because — tautologically — all information that isn’t anti-Russia is automatically pro-Russia.
I am sharing the instant article because it illustrates the use of propaganda by an enemy of Russia. And I am doing this, in turn, to make a point.
The point, simply, is this: Propaganda is propaganda.
Tidewater News and Opinion Forum 
Well dang, some people around here need to watch “Red Dawn” a lot less and “Wag the Dog” a lot more.
The whole MSM, plus FOX have totally bought into to the hero resistance myth and won’t look at the Nazi reality at all.
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Hero resistance myth?
Russia’s criminal invasion has been resisted by someone. By the usual meaning of the word “hero” it would apply to people who sacrifice their own well-being in defense of his country and the people in it. Maybe you have one of your special definitions that doesn’t apply to those risking everything for others. That wouldn’t surprise me.
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There are different types of hero, recognized since antiquity. Zelensky and Biden appear to me to be “tragic heros.”
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“The Nazi Reality”
Preferring democracy and prosperity versus tyranny and slavery does not make you a “Nazi.” Resisting a foreign invader does not make you a “Nazi.”
For sure, the Russian invasions starting in 2014 stirred the most ardent Ukrainian Nationalists to action. Some of them are the same unsavory types whom you cheer for as they use violence to overturn an election. Bad people. You could even call them “Nazis.” So what? Those “Nazis” are the pretext for Putin’s latest invasion. They are not the reason.
You know what a country run by “Nazis” looks like? Look at Russia. That is the relevant “Nazi Reality” in this conflict.
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I can always tell when you are desperate, you unleash an army of straw men.
You have been manipulated by a PR campaign telling you what you want to hear and pushing your hate buttons. and now you are desperately defending your delusion.
That Putin is bad does not make the Ukrainian oligarchs good.
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Zelensy is kicking Putin’s ass. The ghost oligarchs of Ukraine are a myth dreamed up by you and shows how little you really WANT to understand about REAL national pride and actual patriotism in the face of overwhelming odds. By pushing the Nazi lie of Putin’s you are implying that Zelensky is either a Nazi or a collaborator.
This Jewish member throws the BS flag on your spreading of the denazifying myth started by Putin.
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De nazifying is an excuse for Putin, not his true motive, but they exist nonetheless.
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I would call it an invalid excuse as the Nazi problem in Ukraine is pretty miniscule by comparison with our own.
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I would disagree, None of our Nazis have tanks.
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“None of our Nazis have tanks.”
Tankers are in our military. Neo-Nazis are also in our military.
We are working to rid our armed forces of scum, so command is aware. Many of our gangs, Oathkeepers, etc., have ex-military. They found a home among the supremacy trash, just like Nazis anywhere.
So, to address your assertion, our Nazis had tanks at one time in their worthless lives. So as a general, you would root them out, I am sure. But, if we were fighting a war, perhaps you might keep them in.
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Wow, that is a ridiculously thin stretch
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Why? Nazis in the military are Nazis in the military, no?
You object to how Ukraine is defending itself with references to the handful of Nazis in the ranks.
Why not object to our nutjobs?
Rootin’ for Putin?
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Our Nazi nutjobs get kicked out whenever they are exposed.
Theirs are promoted.
There is a huge difference between scattered individuals within the army and an army of Nazis operating outside the chain of command.
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An “army of Nazis”?
You are deluding yourself. I really have a hard time figuring out why some here are truly favoring Putin and spreading his BS.
I know he is a strongman and the right wing has shown a love for strongmen. But really, is that what we want for our country.
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Again, read the article by the American in Donbas and on the propaganda.
Yes, independently acting armies of Nazis
Doesn’t fit your heroic fantasy, but it is what it is.
And conceding that Putin is going to get what he wants is not support, but denying the inevitable is just going to get a lot of people killed and leave generational resentments leading to future wars.
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Again, “armies of Nazis”. Multiple armies? How many? Who are they fighting?
Do you have any information other than Putin and the guy who said he thought the shelling or rocket attacks on an apartment complex may have come from the west so they might have been Ukrainian?
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2 actually, they’re named in the article you didn’t read.
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“And conceding that Putin is going to get what he wants is not support, “…
Really? Looks like things are shifting and after getting their collective asses kicked by the Ukrainians, they are now POSSIBLY turning to what you referred to as the ACTUAL goal, the DOnbas.
That change in strategy is because they could not take Kyiv.
Low morale, poor logistics, adn soldiers attacking their leaders because they are failures is a big issue for Putin’s “superpower” Army.
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“Our Nazi nutjobs get kicked out whenever they are exposed.”
Maybe. Maybe not.
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“. . . and an army of Nazis operating outside the chain of command.”
If you are referring to the Asov militia that formed spontaneously to resist “separatist” militias organized by Putin, you should know that when the invasion began this group was taken into the Gendarmerie and now operates within the chain of command of the Interior Ministry.
Here is the truth and background of Putin’s Nazi claims put together by real journalists doing the grunt work so you won’t have to.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukraine-russia-war-azov-battalion-putin-premise-war-vs-nazis/
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Here’s better truth and background:
https://www.unz.com/pescobar/make-nazism-great-again/
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Better truth form UNZ? Not even going to read it. I had enough bad food last night.
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“Maybe. Maybe not.”
Christian nationalists had virtual control of the Air Force Academy a few years back. Our military is not immune to the machinations of extremists. Vigilance is called for.
https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4676698
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Desperate?
LOL!
You are the one constantly trying to justify nonsense.
The facts are pretty damn clear. Putin started his invasions in 2014. He used local shitheads, Russian soldiers and mercenaries to move Ukrainian provinces to Russia. He was successful in Crimea. He failed in Donbas. People in those provinces fought back. Ukraine fought back. They got labeled “Nazis” by the aggressor. And you are still repeating the obvious LIES.
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And you’re still repeating the more carefully crafted lies.
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“And you’re still repeating the more carefully crafted lies.”
Uh, which “more carefully crafted lies” are you referring to?”
My post above is a string of declarative sentences. Which ones are “more carefully crafted lies? Let me number them for easy reference. . .
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Your Red Dawn analogy is old tired and, IMO, idiotic.
The Nazi reality is as bad here as it is in Ukraine. You gonna invite your buddy Putin to invade the US to rid us of them here?
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Really? The Neo-Nazis here have tanks and artillery and are shelling communities they don’t like her?
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No, but they have military style weapons and HATE everyone. They are NOT patriots in any sense of the word. And there are lot more of them here than there.
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Do you have evidence for that?
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We are not in a hot war. I think any army tank shelling Chesapeake might be obvious don’t you think.
By most counts, there are less than 1000 neo-Nazis in the Ukraine military.
Shoot, the Oathkeepers alone have many times that in members. Or the several hundred “Civil War buffs” that shouted “blood and soil” and “Jews will not replace us”…the “fine people”.
You don’t want Ukrainians to fight. You relish the idea that some Nazis among the fighters makes defending the homeland toxic.
Who is peddling that crap?
And you are pushing it day in and day out.
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You malign a lot of people you don’t know.
It is certainly possible that there are some white supremacists within the Oath keepers, but it is not a white supremacist organization.
Oathkeepers is made up of current and former military, police and first responders who agree to not obey orders that are in conflict with the Constitution, such as no-knock searches on contrived justification, disarming of honest citizens (as was done in New Orleans after Katrina) and detention of citizens without due process.
What is your problem with that?
https://www.oathkeepers.org/declaration-of-orders-we-will-not-obey/
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You just said that it is certainly possible there are some White supremacists in Oathkeepers, but that is OK.
But a relative few fighting for their lives in Ukraine is a problem?
Who is maligning whom?
Oathkeepers also attacked our Capitol with combat gear and pre-planning in some cases.
Really, who the hell do they think they are? Not good Americans, that is for sure. Vigilantes maybe?
See, a country does not really do well if individual citizens take the law into their own hands. We have Congress, State Houses, Courts, etc. that we elect and select to run our country and set the rules. If a group does not like them, go to the ballot box.
And we did go to the ballot box, and those jerks said, effectively, that it was not what they wanted, so they preferred to stuff their choice down our throats.
Don, these “militias” are gangs. Organized gangs who don’t like us much unless they get what they want by intimidation or force.
Better than Ukrainian Nazis? Hell no. Just speaking a different language.
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So, if some Norwegians are Nazis, then all Norwegians are Nazis?
Clearly you did not read Mr Robert’s posts on Ukrainian propaganda and on the AMerican Reporting from the Donbas.
It’s not a few Neo-Nazis among otherwise regular soldiers, It’s entire brigades composed entirely of Nazis under Nazi command.
There is nothing like that in the US
You also didn’t read the link on the orders Oathkeepers will not follow. Refusing to act contrary to the Constitution if ordered to do so is the opposite of the SS. Your rights are safer under the Oathkeepers than the FBI
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As far as I could gather, there was one brigade, Azov, that may have been a group of Nazi and Neo-Nazis and before the invasion they numbered about 900 men.
You might not know that Ukraine has been invaded by Russia in 2014 and fighting them ever since. The elections and polls in both Crimea and Donbas were not the overwhelming numbers that Putin told you. Also, soldiers without insignia, “little green men” as the locals called them, infiltrated key areas of Crimea before hand.
I won’t dismiss the filth of Nazis, but if you are a country that is facing a Russian invasion, sometimes the bedfellow in the barracks are not ones choice.
Actually, Norway has its share of neo-Nazis also. But we haven’t attacked them yet.
I am sure you are aware that the Mafia helped us in Italy. Bloodthirsty killers, extortionists and plain scum, but we enlisted their help because we were at war and all help was welcomed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaborations_between_the_United_States_government_and_Italian_Mafia
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“You malign a lot of people you don’t know.”
Yeah, Oathkeepers. Wonderful people of high purpose. Gee, only their leader and ten of their members have been indicted for Seditious Conspiracy and Other Charges in the violent attempt to overthrow the government. And that was not the first of their outrages. The kindest words that you can say about them is that they are delusional vigilantes.
https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounders/oath-keepers
Your linking to some of their nice, self-serving words and discounting their actions is kind of like taking Putin’s words at face value while ignoring HIS actions. It is immature thinking at best. “By their works shall ye know them” is shared wisdom as old as the Bible.
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The ADL sees Nazis everywhere.
Just which of those 10 orders would you want them not to refuse?
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“The ADL sees Nazis everywhere.”
They now a lot better than you do. And they are correct.
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“Just which of those 10 orders would you want them not to refuse?”
That entire proclamation is childish nonsense, and it is a smokescreen for the illegal political violence and vigilantism that is their demonstrated purpose.
Your trashing the Anti-Defamation League is based on what? That you sympathize with many of the thugs that they warn about?
But, if you do not trust a Jewish organization, there are countless others who have documented the real nature of the Oathkeepers and similar groups. They are the would-be equivalent of Hitler’s Brownshirts. For example. . .
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/08/17/white-supremacists-militias-private-police-215498/
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/11/7/13489640/oath-keepers-donald-trump-voter-fraud-intimidation-rigged
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Propaganda is indeed propaganda. And journalism is journalism.
The problem that you constantly exhibit is understanding the difference. You mistake obvious Russian propaganda for journalism, and you take the work of bona fide journalists as propaganda. If you like a report it is journalism – no matter the source. If you dislike it, it is propaganda – no matter the source.
Of course, both sides of a conflict do their best to shape the narrative. And, let’s agree that Ukraine has proven far better at doing that than have the Russians. Is that their brilliance or is it because their task is infinitely easier because reality is working with them? Is this really about de-Nazification of a country lead by a Jewish President or is it an attempt to expand Russia. Is this a “war?” Is this an “invasion?” Or is it just a “special military action.” Answer any of these questions the wrong way in Russia and you end up – if you are lucky – in jail.
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The problem that you constantly exhibit is the failure to weigh information on its merits. It seems to matter to you whether a propagandist or journalist tells you the sky is blue.
I do not agree that Ukrainian propaganda has been “better” than Russian propaganda. On the contrary, I find all propaganda to be destructive.
I wish more people would realize that when propaganda is all we have to work with, then we need to process all of it to figure out the truth.
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…”weigh information on its merits. ”
The information (or disinformation) coming out of the Kremlin and its controlled media has been weighed, measured and found wanting.
Too bad you are a sucker for a plethora of BIG LIES.
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What do you make of the information coming out of Kiev as shown in the article? Do you, for example, notice any neo-Nazi themes? How do you reconcile that with Ukraine’s nominally Jewish president?
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Check your sources more closely. It appears that much of this could have been fabricated by the reporter, based on MNP’s history.
They like to make shit up.
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RE: “could have been fabricated”
Please get back to us when you can prove something in the story was fabricated. Until then your allegation is irrelevant, lazy and an obvious attempt to avoid answering the questions posed to you: What do you make of the information coming out of Kiev as shown in the article? Do you, for example, notice any neo-Nazi themes? How do you reconcile that with Ukraine’s nominally Jewish president?
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Lazy is what you are when you don’t check your sources. MNP has a history of making up stories (propaganda, if you will ) to support THEIR idea of independent reporting and it ends up being false.
I stand by what I said. That it is, to use a phrase used often by TFG and his boss, Putin, “fake news”.
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Propaganda is NOT all we have to work with. That is utter nonsense. We also have provable facts revealed by the work of bona fide journalists. People may spin those facts in some outlandish way, but that is where people with some degree of intelligence, education, and experience can make their own judgments about the spin.
For example, you take the fact that Russia’s army has failed to advance for weeks now and conclude that it is executing some classic military plan. Others take the same fact and conclude that the Ukrainian defense has stopped their advance. Same facts. Different spin.
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…”has failed to advance for weeks”.
Not to mention the Ukrainian forces have actually pushed the Russians back about 15 miles further from the outskirts of Kyiv and have taken back control of some smaller towns.
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RE: “For example, you take the fact that Russia’s army has failed to advance for weeks now and conclude that it is executing some classic military plan.”
The Russian army has not failed to advance. You are misinformed.
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“The Russian army has not failed to advance”
Right. They have been pushed back. YOU are the misinformed one.
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“The Russian army has not failed to advance.”
So, staying in virtually the same places for weeks and retreating on some fronts is not a failure to advance. Just part of the “genius” plan that is too hard for NATO experts to understand?
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RE: “They have been pushed back.”
Is that a fact? Give us a citation.
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Every news source you DON’T use.
Who’s lazy now?
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RE: “So, staying in virtually the same places for weeks and retreating on some fronts is not a failure to advance.”
Where has the Russian army stayed in virtually the same place for weeks or retreated from some fronts?
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“Where has the Russian army stayed in virtually the same place for weeks or retreated from some fronts?”
This game is getting tiresome. That the Russian invasion is floundering is documented everywhere you look. You are a big boy. Do your own research. Try Googling “Russian advance stalled in ukraine” and you will find thousands of authoritative reports confirming the simple truth that you want to deny.
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OK, I googled your search string. Here’s a current BBC assessment:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60506682
The various maps show major Russian advances and do not indicate any Russian retreats.
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The map does not specify when those advances took place. And NONE of them are anywhere except open country and small towns.
And from that same BBC article:
“Russia launched its attack in the early hours of 24 February, but more than four weeks into the war its forces have mostly failed to build on initial gains they made across the country.”
“Ukrainian forces re-occupy several areas west of the capital Kyiv”
So sure, the front lines are fluid. But Russia’s advance is stalled as the article YOU selected makes very clear. And that Russia’s invasion is stalled is reported in the hundreds of authoritative reports that you ignored in choosing this one.
Even if you are rooting for a Putin victory, is that a reason to ignore proven facts?
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RE: “And that Russia’s invasion is stalled is reported in the hundreds of authoritative reports that you ignored in choosing this one.”
I didn’t ignore anything. I simply used your own search string to pick out a report that contradicts your narrative. In fact, since you seem to believe that CBS and MSNBC give you good gouge, I intentionally picked a BBC story that proves them wrong.
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…” I find all propaganda to be destructive.”
Yet you continue to spread it.
You appear claim it is an exercise of some sort. I call it out for what it is: An attempt to undermine the truth for your own devices.
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Once again your “source” has some very questionable history, including hiding who is paying the freight.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MintPress_News
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So what? You are free to research the story and refute any of the content. If the story is true and accurate, the source doesn’t matter.
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“You are free to research the story and refute any of the content.”
In general, the burden of proof is on those who assert a “fact.” This is where the source of a “fact” is relevant. If your only evidence is, say, a nutty fringe website, then don’t expect others to put much weight on the “fact” you are pushing.
Russia is saying the Ukraine government is under the control of drug-addled neo-Nazis. You people are spreading that “fact” and would like to support it with evidence. Unfortunately all you can come up with is garbage from – at best – marginal sources. It gets back to the original point – separating propaganda from journalism. My advice – try harder and think. Zelensky is Jewish and won the Presidency with more than 74% of the vote. How does that fact jive with the Putin propaganda you want to believe?
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RE: “Russia is saying the Ukraine government is under the control of drug-addled neo-Nazis.”
That’s a new one on me. Since I have never heard that before, it must be your fantasy that I believe it. Here are the assertions I have made and substantiated:
Neo-Nazis in Ukraine are real and the U.S. and NATO have been giving them weapons.
I will add a new assertion: Zelensky’s “jewishness” is overrated. He is married to a christian and his children are baptized. He doesn’t appear to practice Judaism in any significant way.
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“That’s a new one on me”
Then you are not paying attention and maybe should get better informed?
You are absolutely correct about what Russia “claims” it is doing? Are you not capable of seeing what nonsense that claim is?
The United States is giving weapons to Ukraine to defend itself. If some tiny fraction of the defenders could be called “neo-Nazis” then your second claim is also true but not significant.
As for how “Jewish” Zelensky is, you are making distinctions that actual Nazis do not make. For what it is worth you have must have sourced your detailed information from a pro-Putin propaganda source. His degree of “Jewishness” would only be an issue with his enemies. Whatever his religious beliefs he is a direct descendant of people killed for their “Jewishness” by Nazis.
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So, my own personal assertions are “true” according to you, but I am not well informed?
Zelenzky’s “Jewishness” is only relevant insofar as stupid people claim that it debunks the FACT that some parts of the army under his control are neo-Nazi regiments. YOU are the one who brought it up.
I find your position very odd. You are effectively throwing your support behind neo-Nazis in Ukraine on the premise that they are insignificant. It must not occur to you that arming them today could become a problem tomorrow.
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“So, my own personal assertions are “true” according to you, but I am not well informed?”
Anyone can make trivial claims that parrot the propaganda they consume. I do not think that stating what Russia claims its war aims are requires anything more than that. Similarly, that there are some Neo-Nazis in a nation of 40 million is certainly true. But it is not significant in the context of repelling invaders.
The “not well-informed” comes across from your obvious inability to separate what Russia “claims” it is doing and what it is actually doing. It also comes from putting too much weight on obvious propaganda such as the fact that some Ukrainians are Neo-Nazis.
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RE: “Anyone can make trivial claims that parrot the propaganda they consume.”
Look in the mirror.
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Sources matter, You denigrate the MSM on a regular basis. But they are truly legitimate sources for news.
This tripe is just further propaganda adn you keep falling for it, hook line and sinker.
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If it is tripe it should be easy for you to prove it. If you can’t or won’t take the trouble, then there is no reason to believe you.
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When you hold yourself to the same standard that you seem to hold everyone else to, I’ll consider it. Until then your tripe is tripe whether I “prove” it or not.
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The standard I adhere to is that assertions require substantiations. At the start of this thread, for example, I asserted that war information Ukraine is putting out is propaganda just as war information Russia is putting out is propaganda. I substantiated my assertion by posting an article with examples of Ukrainian propaganda and a breakdown of Ukraine’s propaganda machine.
Since I find the article to be credible, you will have to show it isn’t not just by making the assertion but by substantiating it.
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Yet you keep pushing the Russian propaganda as truth.
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And wiki supports my assertion about your “source”.
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RE: “Yet you keep pushing the Russian propaganda as truth.”
No. I share information that I consider worth sharing. If you assume I am trying to shape the truth, you are simply mistaken. That is why I insist you show where the information I share is wrong.
If I share wrong information and you can prove it, I’ll admit my mistake. But if your only proof is your opinion, then I have no use for it.
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No you share Russian and pro-Russian propaganda and hold it up as truth.
Your semantics doctorate has proven to be well deserved. Yet you still help perpetuate the lies from the Kremlin and Putin and his minions.
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“I’ll admit my mistake”
LOL!
Well, they say there is a first time for everything.
How about admitting that Russia’s invasion is stalled? They are. The evidence is overwhelming but you just cannot admit even the simplest and most obvious of errors that you have made. And you have had PLENTY of opportunity to prove that willingness you claim to have.
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No he won’t. He’ll play his semantics game and try to find every unreliable source possible and say he is never wrong.
He’s done it in the past. And a leopard does not change his spots.
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