Game Changer in Ukraine–Referenda

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Source: A Son of the New American Revolution.

While propagandized Americans are celebrating Ukraine’s victory and Russia’s defeat that began with the Kharkov counter-offensive, Russia is moving to escalate the Ukrainian conflict toward international war.

Published by John Todd Roberts

Published

51 thoughts on “Game Changer in Ukraine–Referenda”

  1. If you think our government or NATO should acquiesce to the dismemberment of Ukraine based on the threats and bluster of the criminal fascist dictator Putin, then you are a very good MAGA-Republican indeed.

    By the way, neat neologism “propagandized.” For a great example look in the mirror where you will see a fellow who this week claimed it was Americans doing the fighting against Russia, now Ukrainians.

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  2. RE: “If you think our government or NATO should acquiesce to the dismemberment of Ukraine based on the threats and bluster of the criminal fascist dictator Putin…”

    I think it is foolish to speak as you do when the prospect of nuclear world war is looming.

    More specifically, if the four oblasts vote to join the Russian Federation on Friday, I think it would be very undemocratic of the U.S. to go to war against Russia in order to force them back.

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    1. What a brilliant move. Have a vote, inside the country you are occupying, as to whether or not you should stay. Too bad Hitler never thought of that. If the Nazis had held a vote inside occupied France, WWII wouldn’t have needed to happen. Too bad Putin didn’t think of it before he bombed the country.

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    2. I suspect that the Ukrainians launched their counter offensive at this time largely to disrupt those referenda and to intimidate the voters there.

      If the result of the referenda is a large majority wishing to be part of Russia it will be politically untenable to continue to support their subjugation.

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      1. “I suspect that the Ukrainians launched their counter offensive at this time largely to disrupt those referenda”

        I suspect you are a “propagandized” fool. These referenda were announced AFTER Russia got its ass handed to them by Ukraine’s offensive.

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          3. From your link . . .

            “The proposed dates given for these events have been fluid due to ongoing battles, the loss of territory Russia had previously gained, tenuous security, and evident lack of support by residents. Due to the occupation, the vote(s) will not be free or fair, and is likely being held to give Russia an “official reason” to annex territories it occupied during the war, similar to the 2014 Crimean status referendum.”

            “EVIDENT LACK OF SUPPORT BY RESIDENTS”
            “VOTES WILL NOT BE FREE OR FAIR”

            But sure, Russia has talked about using referenda to validate its conquests since 2014.

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          4. So, you’re an election denier now?

            Sure, people might feel intimidated, though the Russians have invited international observers. Absent that intimidation, the referendum might only be 90% in favor of joining Russia instead of 95%

            They were scheduled for Sept 15, but Zelensky said Ukraine would not negotiate peace talks if referendums were held.

            Of course, he had no intention of negotiating anyway.

            The Oblasts have wanted their independence from Ukraine a long time and originally wanted to have referendums on independence, but have since seen that Ukraine would not honor their independence and sought Russia’s protection,

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          5. “So, you’re an election denier now?”

            That you would give ANY legitimacy to such an obvious charade does not speak well of your intellectual chops.

            You estimate 95% approval and that these Oblasts want to join Russia. Bullshit. Ethnic Russians have NEVER been the majority in Donbas. Many Ukrainians have grown up speaking Russian. That does not make them Russian any more than speaking English makes you British.

            The most recent pre-civil-war census in 20o1 found that Donetsk was 38% Russian-ethnicity and Luhansk was 39%. And given the choice between a European leaning democratic Ukraine vs a backward fascist dictatorship, there is little reason to believe that all of the ethnic Russians want to leave Ukraine.

            The well-documented fact is that Putin has armed, encouraged, and reinforced a minority of Russians to wage civil war in a way analogous but even more brazen than Hitler’s exploitation of the Sudetenland.

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          6. I doubt your “well documented fact”

            But in any case, Russia has invited international observers so if you are so confident the referendums will fail, why should you opose them?

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          7. “I doubt your “well documented fact” ”

            Then there is no point trying to have an adult conversation with you. I suggest you educate yourself on the basic FACTS of this conflict before chiming in with your Putin cheerleading.

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          9. “So you have no support for your lies.”

            I do not operate like you do. You have NEVER caught me in a lie. And this time is no exception. It IS a well-documented fact that Russia has encouraged, armed, reinforced and infiltrated separatist militias in Donbas since 2014.

            That you call a simple statement of a well-documented part of the story a “lie” only demonstrates your gullibility when it comes to fascist propaganda – so eager to swallow it whole. And so unwilling to accept the truth.

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          10. If it is well documented, then show us a non-opinion article to that effect.

            Russian support for ethnic Russians on the other side of a border drawn for the purpose of diluting Russian ethnic cohesion in the USSR does not impress me.

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          11. “If it is well documented, then show us a non-opinion article to that effect.”

            I am not going to play your childish games. The facts of the matter are well-known and well-documented. You can feign ignorance or disbelief all you want. It changes nothing. I will repeat my advice, if you are really so ignorant of the backdrop of the current war, you should educate yourself.

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          13. “Because you say so”

            No, my powers do not extend to creating an alternate reality. The facts of Russia’s role in fomenting war in Donbas since 2014 are beyond dispute. If you want to be a jackass and pretend this is not true, knock yourself out.

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    3. If the prospect of nuclear world war is looming it is not the doing of the United States, NATO, Ukraine or China. It is the doing of V. Putin. Russia has shown itself to be a hollow paper tiger. Giving in to such threats and bluster by stabbing Ukraine in the back would be foolish and in the long run counter-productive to the cause of peace. Appeasement of rapacious fascist dictators has never worked. If it is MAD he wants, it is MAD we should give him.

      If you think a referendum of people held at the point of a gun in a war zone is an exercise in democracy you are an even bigger “propagandized” dope than I thought. It is putting lipstick on a pig. And that pig is fascist aggression.

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      1. RE: “If it is MAD he wants, it is MAD we should give him.”

        Help yourself if you want to commit suicide, but leave me and my family out of it.

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        1. You think giving in to tyrants makes you safer. It is a mistake that has been made countless times throughout history. You do not want nuclear war. Neither do I. And neither do the people in Russia who would have to carry out a maniac’s orders to start one.

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          1. I think “giving in to tyrants” is a false narrative. In this conflict the Ukrainian military kills Ukrainian citizens. For that reason I am open to different narratives than the one you insist upon.

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  3. To paraphrase a tweet I recently saw: I would pay an embarrassing sum of money for someone to film Don and John watching an Indiana Jones movie. I would love to see their crying and screaming when the Nazis get killed.

    And as for that China alliance, Xi told Putin to kiss off. China will do business with Russia, so long as it is in China’s interest. (Translation: They’ll buy discounted gas.) But when it comes to war, they’re not interested. China isn’t about to donate weapons or troops to Putin’s war. Russia is reduced to buying weapons from North Korea.

    Putin is not a total idiot. He knows if he starts a nuclear war, Russia will not win. Nukes would rain down on Moscow from every nuclear-armed country in the world. He has very few moves left. He could bomb Ukrainian nuclear plants and say the Ukrainians did it. Or he could use chemical and biological weapons. Both are loser’s options.

    If a “large majority” of Ukrainians wanted to be part of Russia, you can be sure Putin and his installed puppets would have held a referendum before they invaded. You have an interesting view of voter intimidation if you think the guys occupying the country aren’t the intimidators. I’ll bet you’d like to see the Proud Boys stationed at US polling places to prevent voter intimidation too.

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  4. Yes, that is a fact. Those joint military operations have been going on for years and China has seen no reason to cancel them… yet. But China will look out for China. They see this war as a stupid move and they aren’t about to get caught up in it.

    https://time.com/6215285/russia-ukraine-war-allies-impact-geopolitics-influence/

    “Already, we have seen Chinese President Xi Jinping go from describing the Sino-Russian relationship as a “no limits” partnership, when he and Putin met just before the Russian invasion, to keeping aloof from the Russian war effort in Ukraine at their recent meeting at the Shanghai Cooperation Organization summit in Samarkand. Unlike America and the West, which have been supplying weapons to Ukraine, China has not been supplying weapons to Russia.”

    China plays the long game. Unlike countries ruled by one-man dictatorships, China is in no hurry to conquer the world within one man’s lifetime. That is the weakness of countries like Hitler’s Germany and Putin’s Russia. So long as China is prospering, Xi will see no need to spend lives and resources to expand their territory. China may not get Taiwan within Xi’s lifetime… but they will get it. When is not important.

    China, of course, didn’t use the exact words “kiss off,” but the meaning was, by China’s standards, strongly worded. “We won’t be supplying you with any weapons.”

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      1. “Reading Mr. Robert’s link it doesn’t appear to be a fact Ms. Radford…..”

        From Mr. Robert’s link . . .
        “There was no immediate confirmation from the Chinese of the Russian Security Council’s announcement.”

        The Russian Security Council can “claim” what it likes and even what it claimed was empty boilerplate stuff. In short, there is nothing in that story to refute China’s stand-offish response to Russia’s foolishness.

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        1. RE: “In short, there is nothing in that story to refute China’s stand-offish response to Russia’s foolishness.”

          There was this: “The Russian Security Council’s secretary, Nikolai Patrushev, is currently on a visit to China for consultations.”

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  5. Well reread it RE.

    Those joint military operations were going on BEFORE the invasion and were scheduled to continue indefinitely. China is participating this year with the understanding they have nothing to do with Ukraine.

    China isn’t going to “condemn” Russia because it’s not in China’s interest to do so. China does “urge restraint.” Restraint is also in China’s interest.

    Putin was “forced to publicly acknowledge Chinese concerns over his ongoing invasion of Ukraine and its repercussions around the world.” That is not a ringing endorsement from China.

    Joint military exercises are a good way for China to keep an eye on Russia’s military capabilities. (China doesn’t trust Russia any farther than they trust the US.) That in no way means they are going to take up arms and fight for Putin’s ambitions to annex a neighbor.

    That “friendship with no limits” pledge came BEFORE Russia invaded Ukraine. It has limits now!

    The ONLY support China is giving Russia is providing a market for their oil and gas that they can no longer sell in the EU. And you can be sure China is getting a hefty discount on all that “support.”

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    1. RE: “The ONLY support China is giving Russia is providing a market for their oil and gas that they can no longer sell in the EU.”

      Not true. Russia and China both have advanced economies and the volume of trade between them has been increasing in recent years.

      https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/china-russia-trade-has-surged-countries-grow-closer-2022-03-01/

      In fact, as two of the major partners in the BRICS+ economic alliance, Russia and China are poised to extablish a new international trade, finance and diplomatic network that shuts out the U.S. and EU.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRICS

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  6. China and Russia are trading partners. Period. They are not a military coalition. China is not supplying Russia with weapons or troops. And Russia used to have an advanced economy, but Putin just flushed it down the toilet. China will establish international trade finance, and diplomatic networks with any country that benefits China… including EU countries and the US. Russia, under Putin, will not do business with the US or the EU or any NATO country for the foreseeable future.

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    1. RE: “And Russia used to have an advanced economy, but Putin just flushed it down the toilet.”

      Is that a fact? Take a look at a Russian supermarket.

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  7. Meanwhile Russians are fleeing Kherson and a large barge with men and equipment was sunk while trying to cross the Dnipro River. Top Russian commanders are leaving Crimea and heading back to Russia. Wagner, Chechen and other military surrogates are fighting amongst themselves are they try to steal from civilians in order to retreat fast and furiously.

    This smattering of news is popping up regularly.

    I don’t think Putin is a happy camper. Demonstrations are increasing and flights from Russia are booked solid.

    But I know, this is all propaganda. Ukrainians really do want to join Russia. We have bioweapons labs in Ukraine. Zelenskyy is a cross dresser. Wheat from Ukraine makes you a Nazi.

    I think the same folks that believe the 2020 election was faked by satellites and bamboo slivers believe what they want in Ukraine.

    IMHANEO

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    2. RE: “But I know, this is all propaganda. Ukrainians really do want to join Russia.”

      If the four oblasts vote to join the Russian Federation, what will you make of that? Will you claim that you know better than they do what they want?

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      1. Of course the four Oblasts will vote to join the Russian Federation. The occupiers will be standing at the polling places with guns to their heads. Sheesh! A person would think you’ve never heard of “rigged elections.”

        Russian troops were told they’d be welcomed into the cities with kisses and flowers. That never happened. Know who’s getting those kisses and flowers? Ukrainian liberators. Know who tortured and killed citizens in the four Oblasts? Russia. Is that what you do to citizens who welcome you with kisses and flowers? Putin’s puppets, installed in the four Oblasts wanted to be part of Russia because Putin was going to give them their own private little fiefdoms. The vast majority of citizens never wanted to be part of Russia. If they had, Russia wouldn’t have had to go in with a 40-mile line of tanks.

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          1. So, this lady does not like Ukrainians. That is what happens after 8 years of civil war fomented by Putin. For every such interview I could post one with the opposite point of view. Even in Donbas, ethnic Russians are the minority except, maybe, where they have murdered or driven away the ethnic Ukrainians with the help of murderous Russian mercenaries.

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          2. ” this lady does not like Ukrainians. ”

            I guess there are SOME who don’t. But I would surmise the majority of them will be glad when Putin’s forces are back in Moscow, protesting for their pay.

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    1. RE: “Russia may have borscht and vodka on the shelves but they don’t have semiconductors.”

      Don’t be ridiculous. Semiconductors are readily available on the world market — from Taiwan, for example.

      You are grasping at straws.

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