OK, a non-partisan story and thought about vaccinated v. non-vaccinated.

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https://www.wsj.com/articles/vaccination-status-has-americans-picking-sides-11628510400

Do the vaccinated have the right and/or duty to avoid the non-vaccinated in social and work situations?

This goes along the line of banning mandates in some states, which forces the onus of protection solely on the vaccinated. Do they refuse to go to work where nothing is mandated and lose pay or advancement. Skipping concerts? Avoiding worship? Or should that be the purview of the non-vaccinated.

Published by lenrothman

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22 thoughts on “OK, a non-partisan story and thought about vaccinated v. non-vaccinated.”

  1. Sorry, Len. Paywalled. Can you pull some of the pertinent paragraphs?

    And a judge in Florida told DeSantis he can’t prevent a business from having customers prove vaccination status.

    “No shirt, No shoes, No vaccine, NO SERVICE”.

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  2. I don’t get it.

    I’m vaccinated. If a transmission occurs, either way, with an unvaccinated person, I’m not the one who’s going to die.

    That said, it’s getting to be time for my booster.

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    1. What’s that “nonaggression” stuff that goes with Libertarianism?

      Sadly, I think we have a responsibility to protect others, even the terminally stupid… especially the terminally stupid. And when the get sick and are dying, we have the responsibility to shout at them.

      The hospitals are performing a disservice. Every terminal patient should be televised.

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      1. Non-aggression?

        I agree that vaccination, and in some circumstances masking, is the right thing to do.

        But while we have the right to use force to prevent someone from harming us, we do not have the right to force people to do good. Peaceful persuasion comes in for that purpose.

        I have alienated a lot of former friends for advocating vaccination and masking in libertarian circles because not all people who see themselves as libertarian get the ethical obligation to do good.

        So, no, the government should not use force to compel vaccination or masking.

        However, if, as a businessman, I choose to require masking or vaccination to enter my property, I have every right to do so. I would like to see some private sector proof of vaccination document. perhaps by a credit card company, to facilitate businesses wishing to provide a safe environment for their customers.

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        1. “ But while we have the right to use force to prevent someone from harming us, we do not have the right to force people to do good.”

          Is it “doing good” to prevent the spread by simple individual actions such as masking and vaccination? Or is it protecting my right to life, liberty and my pursuits?

          It is like firing your gun. At the range or open areas with safe backdrops is fine. But shooting celebratory rounds into the air is infringing on other people’s rights. True in rural areas the odds of death, injury or property damage are small. But suburbs and cities are another story.

          So we have laws against unlawful discharge because relying on people “doing good” or the right thing is not realistic. So such laws are acceptable and necessary.

          (My commercial building started leaking into my tenant’s spaces causing a lot of ceiling damage. Source: a bullet hole through the flat roof membrane.)

          So we know that COVID is aerosol dependent for spreading and we have effective means to mitigate the contagion by distance, masks and vaccines. The purposeful avoidance of vaccination outside of medical reasons is like allowing gunfire into the air so gun owners can preserve 2nd Amendment rights.

          Willful disregard for life is not acceptable in any society. Why should we tolerate that here?

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          1. “Is it “doing good” to prevent the spread by simple individual actions such as masking and vaccination? Or is it protecting my right to life, liberty and my pursuits?”

            It is something of a gray area. It depends on where you are.

            It is entirely appropriate to require masks at the DMV, because you can’t take your business elsewhere.

            But what about a sports bar? If people aren’t masked there, then you have the option not to go.

            Further, the owners of those sports bars can make their own rules for entry.

            Nanny’s Sports bar could require proof of vaccination and masks as well. Darwin’s Sports bar might say ‘come as you are.’

            Choose your pub.

            Or grocery, or theater. We just need to empower the property owners.

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  3. If you are old and immunosuppressed the risk is all yours. The efficacy of the vaccines has been questioned with regards to Delta. It was around 88%+, but now I’ve seen +/-60%. Yes death is not necessarily the result, but serious illness and other effects are real.

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  4. What about people with natural immunity? Apparently this is stronger than the protection provided by vaccines. Should people with natural immunity avoid people who are merely vaccinated?

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    1. “What about people with natural immunity?”

      What about them? Lamar Jackson, QB of the Baltimore Ravens has had the virus twice now. No natural immunity appears to be occurring. At least in his case.

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  5. Natural immunity is still being studied. There is evidence that vaccines provide a broader range of protections in variants.

    https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/06/22/how-immunity-generated-from-covid-19-vaccines-differs-from-an-infection/

    A month ago the Cleveland Clinic said that natural might be as good as vaccinated. But not necessarily better. They did recommend that recovered patients get at least one jab.

    https://www.healthline.com/health-news/new-study-determines-people-whove-had-covid-19-dont-need-to-get-vaccinated

    In other words, we don’t know yet all the ramifications of this disease except that a lot of hospitals are filling up with younger and sicker unvaccinated patients.

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    1. RE: “There is evidence that vaccines provide a broader range of protections in variants.”

      Your source doesn’t actually say that. It says that antibodies induced by the mRNA vaccines target more parts of the spike protein than antibodies induced by natural infection. It is unclear whether this is a good or bad thing.

      Just to illustrate, it could be a very bad thing if the vaccine-induced antibodies are driving the virus to mutate toward an untreatable variant.

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      1. This is true. But it’s no different than any infection with a person’s individual immune response, vaccinated or not. 8 billion individual laboratory isolations, and that’s assuming no other species get involved, like your cat or dog.

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        1. More like 8 billion laboratories of three basic types: Those that produce viruses that harm the vaccinated only; those that produce viruses that harm the unvaccinated only; and those that produce viruses that harm everybody.

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      2. Meanwhile the ICU’s are filling up in the states with low vaccination rates.

        Just a coincidence I am sure.

        A friendly word of advice. Don’t get shot offering vaccine advice or have a serious accident in certain states, ER and ICU bed spaces are going fast.

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        1. I gave you reading advice. Your source doesn’t say what you claim it says.

          Now I’ll give you propaganda advice: ICU’s are not “filling up” in the states with low vaccination rates. Virtually all hospitals across the country are well below peak capacity and the Delta-driven case surge is at present only a small fraction of last January’s peak.

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