Even the WP gives 2 Pinocchios on job claims
Biden is claiming his Infrastructure program will create 19 million jobs over 10 years. The claim is based on a Moody’s analysis but that same report also said the economy would add 16.3 million jobs without the $2Trillion program, so it is actually $2Trillion to add 2.7 million jobs, or $740,740 per job.
And that doesn’t account for the jobs lost to the planned corporate tax increase.
Tidewater News and Opinion Forum 
And yet our infrastructure is falling apart and, up until now at least, has not been known to fix itself.
Odd, how when Trump promised again and again to do what Biden is now doing not a squeak out of you. Now the sky is falling because, unlike Trump, Biden meant it when he promised to get after this very real problem.
As for jobs to be lost to corporate tax increases, you merely demonstrate again how little you understand of the way corporate decisions are made.
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Less than 10% of the $2 Trillion goes to actual infrastructure.
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“Less than 10% of the $2 Trillion goes to actual infrastructure.”
“Infrastructure” is a lot more than highways. Duh! And, very unlike GQP governance the plan is fiscally responsible with enough new taxes included to more than cover the outlays.
We can all really feel your pain and frustration. Finally the government is actually making progress towards doing what the people call for and you cannot stand it. Snipe away if it makes you feel better.
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Child care is not infrastructure
Medicaid is not infrastructure.
Roads and bridges are infrastructure,
Flood control and erosion control maybe.
Broadband for underserved areas is a stretch but OK.
Still 90% of the cost IS NOT infrastructure.
If you truly believe those other things are justified, then present them to Congress on their own, but if Democrats cannot advance their agenda except by deception, it should be rejected.
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“Broadband for underserved areas is a stretch but OK.”
In today’s world, the information super highway is as important, if not more so, that a 4 lane roadway. Calling it a stretch, is in itself, a stretch.
Human capital may not be traditional infrastructure, but without humans, the rest of it means bupkes.
There is no deception by Democrats and I find it hysterical that you use that word when you threw full-throated support to 45 and attempted to explain away his daily deceptions. (comparisons to the previous OOO (Oval Office Occupant) are NOT making it all about him, but reasonable observations).
The fact that “infrastructure Week” is no longer a joke is what really has you upset – IMO.
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Words mean things
Trump has nothing to do with this.
If the Democrats want to pass a child care or adult day care bill, then propose them as they are. But yes, if you claim they are the same thing as roads and bridges, or even wifi, that is deception.
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“Still 90% of the cost IS NOT infrastructure.”
Another one of your patented “alternative facts.” Declared with an air of authority that masks what complete BULLSHIT it actually is.
First of all, it is the American Jobs Plan NOT the American Infrastructure Plan so already you are beating up a straw man with your whining.
But, with that said the plan’s main emphasis IS on infrastructure.
The 15 year Jobs Plan is to spend $2,650 billion including . . .
Transportation infrastructure – $621 billion (23%)
American manufacturing infrastructure – $590 billion (22%).
Data, electrical and water systems infrastructure – $311 billion (12%).
Housing and building stock modernization – $328 billion (12%)
Here is a detailed breakdown of the pieces of this JOBS plan. And the taxes that will pay for it. Knock yourself out with quibbles . . .
https://www.crfb.org/blogs/whats-president-bidens-american-jobs-plan
By the way, you object to Medicaid and Home Care jobs being part of it ($400 billion). As a matter of fact, the challenge of caring for the growing number of aging and indigent people is extremely important and will not deal with itself. Don’t you just hate it when the government foresees problems and tries to deal with them? Obviously you do.
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If you want to pass adult day care and memory care funding, then fine. Go for it.
But don’t call it a bridge.
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I don’t have time right now to dive inti the numbers too deeply, maybe this evening, but for a start, of the $621Billion supposedly for “Transportation Infrastructure” only $115 Billion is actually new or replaced roads and bridges. Almost half of the $621B is for electric cars for government use and a network of charging stations. The government also buys gas and diesel cars and trucks, so why aren’t they infrastructure? Does the government fund a network of gas stations? Nope, it’s not infrastructure, it’s a subsidy for Crony electric car makers.
The portion going to Amtrak and Transit isn’t for new routes, it’s for operating expenses.
And so on.
NOT INFRASTRUCTURE
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RE: “First of all, it is the American Jobs Plan NOT the American Infrastructure Plan so already you are beating up a straw man with your whining.”
You, Mr. Murphy, are the one who made infrastructure the focus of the thread. The original post concerned Stumble Joe’s deceitful claim that the legislation he supports would create 19 million jobs over ten years. It won’t, for the reasons Dr. Tabor and his source stated.
This incident reveals that Stumble Joe is a bona fide liar.
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“Independent analysis shows that if we pass this plan, the economy will create 19 million jobs…”
Note the word “economy”. In other words, without the infrastructure bill, about 16.3 million would be projected.
The intimation that the bill alone would provide 19 million is perhaps intentional, but that is not what was said by the President.
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The headline for this story – “Biden’s American Jobs Plan could cost taxpayers about $666,000 per job created” – is mathematically correct – I suppose – but completely dishonest and deliberately misleading.
First, we are not buying jobs. We are buying goods and services that otherwise would not be produced. Second, and more importantly, the honest measure would not be “jobs created”, but “job years created.” Somebody put to work for 15 years would be at an average cost of $44,000 per year based on the $666,000 figure. Is that a good deal for the taxpayers or a bad deal? It depends on the value of the goods and services produced AND what would the cost be to support that person if they remained unemployed.
Right-wing media, for some reason, always oversimplify complex matters and present them as if their readers are idiots unable to bring even a little bit of critical thinking to the table. This headline is a good example of that.
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“This incident reveals that Stumble Joe is a bona fide liar.”
I’ll take this coment seriously when you confess that 45 was also.
Until then, fuhgedaboutit.
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Trump is not a valid excuse for Biden lying, especially since we’re talking about misrepresenting the purpose of legislation to the public and not a boast about a crowd size.
A lie by Biden is a lie regardless of anything done by any past President. If it were, then Obama’s lies would have absolved Trump.
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The point I am trying to get through your head is that to call out Biden’s lies they way you attempt to do (WOW!!! 2 whole Pinocchio’s from WAPO when 45 averaged 4 per lie???), is completely and totally disingenuous coming form people such as yourself who defended EVERY SINGLE FREAKIN” LIE form the previous administration. Crowd size???? The man lied to everyone about the damned pandemic and YOU GAVE HIM CREDIT FOR IT.
You do not get to call Biden a liar until you ADMIT that 45 was much much worse.
And the idea of human infrastructure is foreign to you. I get it. If it ain’t you and yours, screw ’em.
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Again, Trump is irrelevant.
Biden is either being truthful or he is not.
The issue is misleading the public on this bill, which is characterized as infrastructure as understood by voters, but is actully a progressive social wish list.
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…”[45] is irrelevant.”
That is an entire different conversation.
Why can you not just admit that you supported the liar and lying lies told by the previous administration? Until THAT happens, anything you have to say about Biden’s lies (IF they are truly lies and not misstatements, misinterpretations or just the right wing media bubble out to get him) are not to be taken seriously
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Uh, I mentioned infrastructure but I did not define it to refer ONLY to highways.
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“Words mean things”
Indeed they do. So quit trying to fob off your own personal limited definitions to support your “alternative facts.”
For example, here is the actual meaning of “infrastructure”
“Infrastructure : the basic physical and organizational structures and facilities (e.g. buildings, roads, power supplies) needed for the operation of a society or enterprise.”
Note that it is a far broader concept than just highways. Also note that it is not just physical things. Organizations are also part of what it covers. For example our infrastructure for providing care to the indigent elderly is in poor shape. Biden’s Jobs Plan addresses that infrastructure deficit directly.
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RE: “Indeed they [words] do [mean things]. So quit trying to fob off your own personal limited definitions to support your ‘alternative facts.'”
You should take your own advice. You cite a dictionary definition of infrastructure, but Wikipedia provides several formal definitions. So, it would seem that YOU are the one promoting “alternative facts” by claiming that only YOUR definition applies.
It is important to note that infrastructure can be either public or private. That is to say, it is not obvious that the public sector has an obligation to provide infrastructure that the private sector does not provide.
In fact, using government to make purchases the private sector would not make is one of the dangers that democracy brings.
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I just read the Wikipedia piece. Looks like you did not understand it. Big surprise! Whoever wrote it, it conforms to the dictionary definitions including the one I cited – the first that Google provides. It confirms that the word is far broader than just highways and bridges.
The charge of “deception” is bogus. It is a job creating bill for a time when jobs are sorely needed. Its emphasis is preparing for the future. The American people like it and want it. And you can’t stand it.
The plan calls for the spending on $2.75 Trillion over 15 years on a variety of programs and projects that are immediately and directly beneficial to the American people. As a point of comparison, the DOD budget for those same years will be – at current levels – about $11 Trillion providing almost nothing that people want or need.
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Actually jobs are not sorely needed.
Employers are reporting trouble finding people to fill the jobs they have, There is a shortage of jobs identical to those people had prior to the pandemic, but not overall.
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RE: “And you can’t stand it.”
No. What I “can’t stand” is your lowbrow behavior in this forum. Here you introduced an irrelevant topic (infrastructure), made personal accusations against others who didn’t deserve them, then finally address the topic at hand by cavalierly dismissing it.
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“. . . lowbrow behavior in this forum.”
With all due respect, Mr. Roberts, you are not equipped to tell the difference between high brow and low brow behavior. Let’s take the following as symptomatic of the level of intellect you bring to the table and from which your insults emerge . . .
You accuse me as follows . . . “Here you introduced an irrelevant topic (infrastructure)”
Here is the first sentence of Tabor’s post . . . “Biden is claiming his Infrastructure program will create 19 million jobs over 10 years.” See the problem? Probably not. Here let me help. I am not referring to Tabor’s inaccurate statement about what President Biden said. I am referring to the fact that HE – not I – introduced “infrastructure” as a topic.
If people of your ilk expect to get a pass with your lies, slanders, half-truths, insults and name-calling my advice is to move on to some other forum. Here, you will get push back. President Biden is NOT a liar. He is NOT selling his American Jobs Program deceptively. He did not say that his plan would create 19 million jobs, he said the economy would – a true statement. And, the plan IS mainly about “infrastructure” based on what that word actually means. And, for example, available and affordable child care IS “infrastructure” if you are someone with a child and need to work.
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“The issue is misleading the public on this bill, which is characterized as infrastructure as understood by voters”
So, now it is the Democrats are “misleading the public” because SOME people do not understand the concept of infrastructure and think it is limited to fixing potholes. As you have seen, the various elements of the bill have been described and dollar amounts affixed. Such analyses are readily available so exactly how is this deceit manifest?
If there is any “deception” around this it would be those who characterize the American Jobs Bill a “progressive social wish list.” What does “social” even mean in this context? These are “economic” measures, not “social” measures. But, hey, we understand. “Social” sounds sorta kinda like “socialist.”
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When the government takes over responsibilities that rightfully fall on the individual or their families, it is advancing socialism by making us more dependent on continued government support.
Socialism, is, after all, an economic system, not a government system.
The associated government system is autoritarianism.
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“Actually jobs are not sorely needed.”
Yes, the economy is coming back to life and beginning to recover from the disaster on Trump’s watch but that ignores two major points that MUST be addressed.
This is a fifteen year program. And the jobs it makes possible ARE sorely needed as are the goods and services that it will generate.
https://www.mckinsey.com/featured-insights/future-of-work/jobs-lost-jobs-gained-what-the-future-of-work-will-mean-for-jobs-skills-and-wages#
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The best thing Biden could do for QUALITY jobs is to just quietly get out of the way.
There are no “green” jobs that pay as well as current jobs in the energy sector, which Biden is working tirelessly to destroy
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“There are no “green” jobs that pay as well as current jobs in the energy sector,”,,,
You are entitled to your opinion. I am entitled to say bullshit.
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OK, show me the jobs
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Paul beat me to it.
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“OK, show me the jobs”
You first. And imaginary pay scales do not count. You have cherry-picked the best paid oil industry workers to tout this $100K figure. Far lower figures are more realistic even for the handful of people actually drilling from offshore rigs.
https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/Oil-Field-Workers-Salary
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Here is a more realistic picture of what oilfield workers make on the offshore sector Biden is killing.
https://www.rigjobsonline.com/salary/
And certainly, the pipeline welders (as opposed to pipe welders) are the elite of welders and make as much as $150K per year, taking note that they generally work a lot more than 40 hours.
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Shipyards are hiring them ALL the time.
Go to where the work is.
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“Here is a more realistic picture”
You want to compare what the earnings of various management and degreed specialists earn versus someone installing solar panels on a roof? That is NOT a reasonable comparison from a policy point of view. Per your source, ordinary oilfield laborers earn $35K. If that is way above what a solar installer earns, I would be surprised.
And, of course, cherry-picking of home system installation laborers as being representative of green energy work opportunities borders on farcical. What about the variety of very highly paid jobs involved in designing, building, transporting, erecting and operating wind turbines.
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A roustabout is an entry level position in the oilfield. No one stays long at that level, either they develop a skill, quit because it’s too hard, or get injured pretty soon.
As a matter of fact, it does pay better than the average for solar panel installers. by better than $5000
https://www.salary.com/research/salary/posting/solar-panel-installer-salary
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…” or get injured pretty soon”
And then what do they get for all of that? Nothing? A little workman’s comp and no ability to work again in their chosen field. Then you will call them takers for wanting SSDI payments.
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“Taking credit for the rising tide”
When I first saw this headline, I really thought it might be a repost from 45’s claims of economic recovery in 2017-18, written by a fellow traveler.
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Well, 10 years is a helluva sampling interval. What’s happening within it? If that $2T created 12 million of those 19 million in the firsr 3 years as opposed to the almost 5 million, would it be worth it then?
If you’re looking for a jump start, you could hook the batteries together and hot-idle the donor car for an hour until the dead battery is recharged. Or, just start the dead car off of the donor alternator output immediately.
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I’m going fishing this morning so I don’t have time to dig up the Moody’s study. Maybe tonight.
But pace and timing aren’t the only ignored variable. Not all jobs are equal.
Replacing $100K+ oilfield and pipeline jobs with $30K jobs in adult day care or installing insulation is not an even trade.
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How about replacing them with solar panel builders and installer?
Your anti-renewable energy stances are well noted. But you just keep going along and avoiding even the inkling of a thought when it comes to progress.
Or does “progress” translate to socialism in your mind?
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Let me know where solar panel installers are being paid even half what drillers or pipeline welders make, I am sure a lot of the people whose Jobs Biden killed with the stroke of a pin would like to know.
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You know who really makes the big bucks? Highly skilled craftsman who can turn raw cow hides into state of the art buggy whips. Why does nobody care about their jobs? And then there are the women whose quick wits and nimble hands kept the nation’s telephones interconnected. Their jobs are gone too. It raises the question – why does Lyin’ Stumble Joe Biden hate women?
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So, you endorse destroying $100K+ jobs producing products people want and need to create $30K jobs that won’t support families.
Got it. Financially struggling people are much easier to manage with government largesse than independent people.
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Those fabulous jobs for a HANDFUL of people are only possible because those “products that people want” have NEVER had to recover the full cost of their production and use.
But the real point of the allusion to buggy whips and switchboard operators is that technology keeps moving on. The days of gasoline and diesel powered vehicles are numbered as are the jobs of the people who earn their living by driving them and extracting the oil to power them.
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The days of internal combustion engines are numbered but the number is pretty high, we have the fuel for them for another hundred years at least which gives the market time to adapt.
The most skilled of those buggy whip makers did quite well, switching their efforts to making very high quality, high priced, whips for “recreational” purposes or other artistic products requiring manual skills. They were allowed to adapt to a changing market as demand changed,
Those oil field workers and pipeline welders who were regulated out of employment on day one had no opportunity to adapt.
Markets are always more gradual and provide more choices than command economies.
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…”had no opportunity to adapt.”
Then they weren’t paying attention to what the market was doing. Too bad for them and those that opposed providing training for them TO adapt.
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TO adapt to what?
A pipeline welder will have taken decades as a structural welder to get to that position of trust, and $100K plus salary.
You can train a person to install solar panels in a week.
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Then they should all have jobs. They can join the numerous others who lost jobs due to changing market conditions and had to take a lower paying position. A little boot strap action. know what I mean?
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How do YOU know? You post nothing to substantiate the claims that installers and producers are not paying what HEAVILY subsidized fossil fuel workers are getting paid.
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“. . . command economies.”
Ridiculous. And so is referring to anything and everything the government might do to address problems that the market cannot as a march to socialism. I suppose in “minds” like yours the march to socialism began in Massachusetts in 1635 when it was decide to finance schools with taxpayer money. Downhill ever since, eh?
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…” a march to socialism”
The fear-filled battle cry of those who deny progress. Also for those who have ZERO agenda and only want to foist fear on their constituents. Trickle down does not work (proven three times over 3 of the 4 past GOP Presidents, (Bush I was too busy trying to dig out from under the “no new taxes” thingy.) and they have no ideas truly to do what is right for the country. Zero agenda except to follow whatever 45 tells them, so instill fear. And fight the culture wars.
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Government should not have an agenda, it should simply protect the marketplace and let it go where demand takes it.
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Then let the GOP say that. They don’t and never have.
And the government should also protect the people, but you don’t care about them, do ya? Your beloved “market” doesn’t either. Unless they live in the C-suite or are MAJOR shareholders.
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“Government should not have an agenda, it should simply protect the marketplace and let it go where demand takes it.”
That is, with all due respect, pure childishness. Is it so hard for you to understand that demand in the marketplace is driven by people with money to spend. Thanks to decades of thinking like yours we have many tens of millions of people in this country who do not have any and no legal way to get it.
Just for a simple example, we have a very large and growing number of elderly people who need full time nursing home care but who cannot pay what it costs. What is the “marketplace” going to do for them without Medicaid or the Medicaid expansion Biden proposes? And, yeah I know, it is their fault they are destitute because they did not save up several hundred thousand dollars out of their minimum wage jobs. But that does not answer the question. What will the marketplace do for them?
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le for government, Thomas Jefferson, in his First Inaugural Address in 1801, said it best: “Still one thing more, fellow citizens–a wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.” Thomas Jefferson
Getting old, by the way, is one of the incentives for maintaining a connected family. Removing that incentive further leads to the breakdown of the family. Big Government has come full circle. After first replacing fathers in the family structure, it now seeks to replace children
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Thomas Jefferson’s inaugural address you cite was delivered at a time when the population of the entire United States was 5 million people, virtually nothing was produced in a factory setting, corporations did not exist and the most advanced communications device known was the stage coach. Whether you are aware of it or not, times have changed. We are no longer yeomen farmers. We now live in a complex world with a vast array of vital interconnections.
I notice that you failed to answer what the marketplace can do about the indigent elderly. Instead platitudes about family life that covered your actual sentiment – Devil take the hindmost.
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Technology changes, principles do not.
Everything the government does, the people stop doing for themselves, In a generation, they can’t imagine ever having done those things without government And government does nothing well.
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Any Trump enthusiast looks ridiculous on that high horse of “principle.” You are not immune.
A lot more than technology has changed since 1801. 5 million people living mainly on farms are now 350 million people living mainly in cities. The Laissez Faire subjugation of government to commercial interests that you yearn for is an impractical pipe dream.
And, once again you dodge what should be an easy question – what will the marketplace do for people with no money. What will the marketplace do for over a million indigents surviving in care on Medicaid?
The answer is obvious and not acceptable to decent people. And that is why you dodge answering it. Obviously.
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You ask the wrong question.
Why don’t people live within their means?
Why do people have children they know they cannot support at that point in their lives?
Why do people break the bond between generations, abandoning both their children and their parents?
The answer is always the same. Government has incentivized irresponsible behavior and discouraged responsibility.
Everything beyond keeping the peace that government has done has led to catastrophe,
Jefferson was right then and he still is. Government is not the answer.
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Uh, you are asking irrelevant questions. It does not matter NOW how half the population ended up indigent and soon unemployable. You want to blame the government instead of the unrestrained greed of the elite, knock yourself out. What matters NOW is what are we going to do about it. You still shy away from answering the simple question – what can the “marketplace” do for people with no money?
Or the specific example that you criticize Biden for addressing but have no viable answer to offer – what can the “marketplace” do for millions of indigent elderly people who have no means of surviving. Your answer is clearly something that you are reluctant to put in writing since you keep dodging the question. It is clearly the ONLY answer the “marketplace” has for people without money – let them die. Teach the others a lesson.
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So, your answer is to do the same thing HARDER and expect different results?
I agree we can’t just stop the welfare state cold turkey, but we need to start the process of weaning the dependent, and certainly not expnad dependency.
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Still no answer. Just doctrinaire bullshit. You take it as given that the government can not do anything right. That everything the government does except “keeping the peace” leads to catastrophe. These are very silly and very childish opinions with almost no reference to reality where a list of government successes would be a very long one.
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