Why Trump Voters Don’t Trust the People Who Count the Votes

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Source: Mises Institute.

I wrote in another post today that the long-term consequences of yesterday’s Capitol incursion are hard to guess. But if I had to guess, I’d say the instant commentary captures some of the likely themes. It is simply not possible to have government of, by and for the people when large numbers of the people believe their government is not of, by and for them.

Published by John Todd Roberts

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58 thoughts on “Why Trump Voters Don’t Trust the People Who Count the Votes”

  1. “ It is simply not possible to have government of, by and for the people when large numbers of the people believe their government is not of, by and for them.”

    You are talking about Black Americans, correct.

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    2. RE: “You are talking about Black Americans, correct.”

      No, I am talking about the Trump supporters the Mises article references.

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    3. And there it is, the automatic presumption of the Democrat that everyone else is a racist.

      Can’t you even once address an issue without dragging in your own irrelevant prejudices?

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          3. How was that in any way relevant to the issue of trust in the bureaucracy?

            At best it was childish and more likely a deflection to avoid facing the issue at hand.

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      2. Don, lighten up a bit. White grievance is so cheap and so predictable. Was what I said wrong? In any case it was a mild jab at a clueless statement.

        And whose irrelevant prejudices are we talking about anyway?

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        1. Note that the underlying issue raised has hardly be addressed at all due to this irrelevant deflection.

          Would it not be worthwhile to actually address an issue here?

          Is it not a problem that a substantial number of Americans do not trust the government, or the press, or their own search results?

          This is a problem that needs to be addressed if we are ever to have a functional government fro either side of the aisle. How do we debate an issue if we can’t agree on the underlying facts?

          John raised an important issue, and you immediately ran it into the ditch instead of addressing it.

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          1. John was saying the right wing talking points that are disgusting. The intimation is that the insurrection attempt and the incitement were justified.

            Don’t you tire of declaring victim status when there is no such thing in the party that has most of the power, money and influence?

            Of course you do. So why keep up the charade?

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          2. “How do we debate an issue if we can’t agree on the underlying facts?“

            An excellent question and the predominant and most fundamental issue our Country has to deal with.

            The damage done by the dis-information factories enabled by trump and his enablers has exasperated an already problematic situation and I hope it can be “fixed” by his and their demise.

            Liked by 1 person

          3. RE: “John was saying the right wing talking points that are disgusting.”

            What “right wing talking points? The Mises Institute is libertarian.

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      3. There is no presumption in Len’s post about racism. It is a commentary on the facts that Black Americans feel that way, and one of the reasons there were racial justice protests this summer. But to you they were just thugs, looters and rioters. You seem to believe that those who stormed the Capital yesterday are some sort of patriotic heroes.

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      4. Did I presume you are a racist?

        John said that the insurrectionists were expressing a grievance that the government was not of, by and for them.

        That is not a new issue, if you pay attention. That is BLM in a nutshell. But when they demonstrate they are communists. When your boys trying to overthrow the government, it is just “boys will be boys”. And they didn’t really want to do anything serious. Serious? Except by getting rid of Biden and keeping Trump who was voted out. That is insurrection and treason.

        That was my point and you got on a tear about “always bringing up race”.

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          3. Identity politics leads to dark places, as you should know.

            Individuals have rights, have responsibilities, and take actions.

            When you start to treat individuals as members of a groups, you risk winding up with some groups becoming dominant over others, That dominant group can then start treating the less powerful groups with disregard.

            It’s a path that leads to serfdom and final solutions.

            So, I will stick to treating individuals as such, and distrusting those who separate us into groups to be treated as such.

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          4. When people seperate themselves into groups, what do you do? It’s an individual choice to identify with a group, so they get there of their own volition.

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          5. If people want to identify as a group, that is one thing, but government should only treat them as individuals.

            Treating races or religions as groups with different privileges goes to dark places very quickly/

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          6. It’s not about treating them differently; it is about treating them the SAME, which historically has not been the case.

            It isn’t about carve outs or special treatment. It is about recognition.

            But in YOUR worldview, anyone asking for equal treatment but doesn’t look, pray, act or talk like you, they do not deserve to be recognized as individuals.

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  2. In every Presidential election this country has ever held, “large numbers of people” didn’t win. The MAJORITY of people win. That’s the way democracy works… until some whiney little snowflakes, who have always thought of themselves as the “majority,” suddenly find themselves in the minority and think the solution is to burn it all down.

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    1. RE: “In every Presidential election this country has ever held, ‘large numbers of people’ didn’t win.”

      That’s true. What’s different this time is the large number among the losers who believe they were cheated.

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      2. So if the beliefs are wrong we are all supposed to stoop to that fallacious level. We are supposed to humor you. Well we did for 4 years and now it has led to a murderous riot with scaffolds.

        You and the other Trump apologists just continue the big lie that the elections were rigged. Some vast conspiracy among Democrats, Republicans, 90 judges, state houses, governors, Secretaries of State
        Dominion, Hugo Chavez and the friggin’ DOJ and Army.

        Fun for a while, but now has caused death and insurrection.

        Well it is time to grow up. The reality show has lost its star and it is time for the sponsors to wake up.

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        1. RE: “You and the other Trump apologists just continue the big lie that the elections were rigged.”

          We’re past that now. That’s the point.

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          2. RE: “Are you finally admitting the election was fair?”

            No. I’m admitting the election was certified. I will never believe the election was fair. More importantly, I’m not alone in that.

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        2. The election was SUCCESSFULLY rigged, as I have been saying for a month.

          It is simple fact that the rules under which the election was held were unlawfully changed by Executive Branch and Judicial actors in several states, in violation of their own state constitutions and the US Constitution.

          There is no real question there, it is black and white.

          But there is no remedy because the voters who acted in accordance with those unlawful changes did so in good faith. A remedy that would negate their will is not acceptable. As I have been saying for a month.

          But there does need to be an acknowledgment that those changes were unlawful and that those who knowingly made those unlawful changes must be brought to justice so this does not happen again.

          If we just let this go, there will be no trust in the next election either.

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          1. You are both detached from reality and I hope you get well at some point in your lives.

            But you have to WANT to get well so……

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          2. You mean “successfully rigged” as in gerrymandering, or as in closing polling places in Democratic neighborhoods, or as in purging voter registration rolls, or as in armed thugs “protecting” polling places in black neighborhoods, or as in forging the names of dead people in order to put candidates on the ticket to split the Democratic vote, or as in getting the names of people who received mail-in ballots and going to their houses to “helpfully” take those ballots to the mail box? How about poll taxes or written tests to vote? Changing the laws so more people can vote is not “rigging” an election. Trying to keep people from voting or watering down their vote so it doesn’t count — THAT is “rigging” an election.

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          3. It was successfully rigged in that changes were made to the process unlawfully and that those changes precluded the detection of fraud.

            That does not prove that large scale fraud happened, but it does make it impossible to ever know if it did or not.

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          4. Rigging an election presupposes a particular outcome. So you are saying that 30 states made rules changes for the pandemic to insure a Biden win. But 6 were critical. So it was a planned fraud. By thousands of willing participants. Or even hundreds.

            You are assuming that Republicans did this to insure a Democratic victory?

            Besides, because YOU say it is against the law but courts didn’t makes it against the law. If the Supremes ruled on “standing”, which is the law, you still deny the rule of law?

            The lies you folks repeat at the behest of Trump and his conspiracy nuts day in and day out led to this attempted overthrow of our government. There are a few comments at Kerry’s site where she lambasted the insurrection. They are convinced the whole episode was staged by the left and Antifa. Not because of any verifiable facts, but because of the lies from Trump and his followers. Lies that convince them that Trump fans could not possibly have done this. They are patriotic and patriots are law abiding.

            So when you spout “rigging” or “fraud” you are just repeating the Trump agenda of trusting no one but him. A cult leader.

            That you and John and a few others bought into this crap is sad, but also telling.

            Now, that being said, Democrats brought a bill about 2 years ago to make voting more secure with better machines, paper ballots, and a slew of other changes to make voting more universal, fair and reliable.

            You guys wouldn’t even debate the issue. But now you are calling for all kinds of reforms because your leader lost and embarrassed himself in front of the world.

            You despise Democrats. Your choice of course. But don’t come crying the blues because Trump, your choice for unending support, was a total disaster.

            Liked by 1 person

          5. I haven’t advanced any argument at the behest of Trump. I have been convinced of the Constitutional issue by Mark Levin, and I posted his explanation here.

            If you disagree with his assessment, tell me where he is wrong.

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          6. It may be a Constitutional issue and will probably get a ruling in the next few years, hopefully before the next election.

            And that would straighten out what is really a legal technicality.

            But what concerns me is your and others insistence on using the words “rigged” or “fraud” or “Democrats got away with it a steal.”

            If this is truly your intention to rectify some
            Constitutional issue, I have no problem.

            But honestly, that is not what your rhetoric implies at all.

            And by saying this issue demands people go to prison for passing laws to make it easier and safer to vote during the worst pandemic in a century you are just another right wing radical repeating lies to usurp the government.

            Words have meaning. You have said that many times.

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          7. People don’t pass laws, legislatures do, under the rules established by the constitutions.

            When ‘people’ pass laws that is referred to as despotism.

            And the bulk of those unlawful changes made it easier to conceal fraud.

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          8. Who do you want jailed?

            Legislators are people last I heard. And the represent constituents who are people.

            If you don’t like what they do you vote them out.

            Or you go to court with proper standing and solid evidence. That is the rule of law. If courts deny the suits for lack of evidence, you can appeal. And re-appeal to higher courts. And all this was done. 50 or more times in 6 states with 90 different judges. So how is this evidence of rigging? Are they all in on the fix?

            Your assertion that fraud was possible doesn’t make it probable or even real.

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          9. Who do I want jailed?

            Start with the judges who allowed blatant disregard for the clear letter of the law because it suited their ends. The courts are supposed to be the apolitical guardians of the law, and when they become politicians guided by outcome instead of law, they have betrayed their office.

            After them, the executive branch officials who ruled by fiat, absent authority from their state constitutions or their legislatures.

            Finally, the local election officials who saw the door opened to fraud and charged through.

            Judges have twisted the concept of standing, refusing to take a challenge to election laws until the candidate has been damaged, and then ruling they waited too late. It is a legal impossibility for there to be no time at which a breach of the Constitution can be addressed.

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          10. All judges? All governors? All legislators?

            Sounds a bit autocratic to me. Classic dictator 101. Take over the media then arrest everyone else.

            You already had FOX so mass arrests were next?

            Like Levin, I think you are so enmeshed in a grand conspiracy of literally thousands of people to plan years in advance, then hope for (or plan and execute, might as well go whole hog here) a pandemic so 30 states would ease restrictions on mail in voting. Then those 30 would provide cover for the half dozen rogue states.

            The tricky part was buying SCOTUS, but everyone has a price.

            I cannot agree at all that there was fraud. That was so proven wrong through evidentiary hearings, legislative hearings, testimony by GOP officials. All “evidence” fell apart. So that left the technical aspect of who could specify the details of voting procedures.

            Remember the early forays by Trump were about specific allegations of actual fraud. When that horse died, then the technicalities came into play.

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      3. And I believe Trump is a narcissistic, mentally incompetent, morally bankrupt loser who is lying about being cheated out of his “landslide victory” because he is too weak to admit he lost. We are all entitled to our own beliefs. None of us are entitled to our own facts. And the fact is: Trump lost! Get over it!

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  3. The Mises article misses an important factor.

    It’s not just that the bureaucracy can’t be trusted, it is that it acted in collusion with the press, the entertainment industry and even Big Tech.

    People can tell when they are being misrepresented, and once they see what they personally know to be true falsified, they will no longer trust anyone.

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      1. “People can tell when they are being misrepresented”

        NOPE

        T**** has been misrepresenting himself to the American people for 5 years. He cares nothing about anything except himself. You don’t believe it because you don’t want to.

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        1. Honestly, I force myself to watch FOX, pay for Reason (but did stop Limbaugh) and generally feel the need to read/listen to a cross section of information resources.

          As an educator i got in the habit, as I faced bright minds with strong opinions on a daily basis. It helped develop that “practiced eye” you denigrated.

          FWIW…

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    3. And whose fault is that. You are full of crap about the media, entertainment and Big Tech. Another bald faced set of lies that most of the country is tired of hearing.

      The right wing media are the biggest voices we have. Just ask them about ratings. Who gives a crap about a Hollywood or sports stars. Bill Cosby was a “conservative voice of reason” for that matter. Big tech is big business. Just because they are clamping down on conspiracies and incitement to violence, they are now bad actors.

      You would not even have had Trump as president were it not for coverage by media and the Twitter platform. Now that conservative grievance politics has been exposed for the lies and threats they thrive on you are crying crocodile tears.

      We had an attempted insurrection incited by Trump and encouraged by the lies you folks spew daily. That would be a wake up call to most clear thinking Americans. And it was with notable, sorry exceptions.

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