Lying, bullying and threats of lawsuits may have worked for Trump, Inc. They are worse than useless versus a virus. This Presidential behavior is deadly malfeasance.
Lies don’t actually help.
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So I guess he is calling governors liars or lazy?
I am sure that will help save lives and get the economy up and running.
Besides it’s WHO’s fault. Or Obama because we didn’t have test kits ready. Or the airlines that flew in 40,000 more from China after his phony “ban”. Or Hunter Biden. The Mexicans. 3M. How about Limbaugh who told tens of millions of “dittoheads” that it’s just a cold.
Oh well, at least his fans and sycophants profess a love for the president.
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How much is enough?
Do we need enough to test those who are symptomatic? Those presumed to be exposed? 20% of the population? 100%? Do we need to test everyone twice?
It’s an infinitely movable goal post.
Odd that some governors are getting it done to their satisfaction, but others, especially with aspirations for VP, can never be satisfied.
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How much is enough? Use the specific guidelines put out by the administration. You do know what they are don’t you.
Here is the Republican governor of Maryland:
“To try to push this off to say that the governors have plenty of testing, and they should just get to work on testing, somehow we aren’t doing our job, is just absolutely false,” Republican Gov. Larry Hogan of Maryland told CNN’s “State of the Union.” “Every governor in America has been pushing and fighting and clawing to get more tests, not only from the federal government, but from every private lab in America and from all across the world.”
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@Tabor
How much is enough?
We need enough testing so that we know what we are dealing with. That involves large scale random testing for antibodies at the very least.
But no worries, without that pesky FDA meddling with silly ideas like “safe and effective,” entrepreneurs are stepping up and providing lots of test kits – that are accurate 50% of the time. You can get them yourself on Amazon.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/05/coronavirus-testing-kits-could-be-unreliable-uk-scientists-say
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You do realize that the article you cite refers to testing in Britain under its single payer national health service, right?
But certainly people shouldn’t trust a lit ordered on Amazon or Ebay. Your doctor, informed by his professional journals, will know which testing companies are reliable.
Of course, if we let the FDA control it, they will single source the test to a crony and we won’t have anything to compare it to.
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If you read the link you would know that the NHS rushed to buy test kits from for-profit commercial companies. Your attempt to denigrate their Single Provider service is a swing and a miss.
Of course people should not buy snake oil on Amazon, but there are many millions of worried people who are not as smart as you who will, putting their lives and the lives of others at risk. That is why we normally have FDA oversight.
Your last sentence is simply fantasy. Fantasy does not Trump the evidence that the “free market” provides garbage to the public if allowed to do so.
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Fantasy?
How long does a business stay in business providing poor quality?
The government, or a protected government crony, can provide garbage and stay in business because there is no alternative, but in a competitive market, you must satisfy your customers or perish.
Asymmetry of information was a problem in the past, but in the information age it no longer does, and that is especially true if we allow or doctors for make supplier choices for us.
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“How long does a business stay in business providing poor quality?”
I don’t know. Walmart has been around a while. And the only reason Kmart isn’t is because it was eaten by Walmart. Fox News is another business that is providing extremely poor quality. I guess Fox Sports will keep the news department afloat.
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Those are matters of taste, not quality.
Walmart provides good value for its customers and I find FOX a far better news provider than MSNBC or CNN, but then I can distinguish between news and commentary.
But I guess craft beer aficionnados look down on us Miller Light deplorables who patronize WalMart.
But WalMart has done more to improve the lot of the poor than government ever has.
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I stand by my poor quality assessment. And I shop at Walmart quite a bit. But only for select items.
…”to improve the lot of the poor”… No, they have done more to keep the poor in their place.
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And I’m personally a Bud Light guy. If you were to look in the beer fridge at the homestead, you would find lotsa Bud Light and one bottle of Sam Adams Boston Lager. (Which my son purchased for me as a surprise) But an occasional craft beer is a nice change of pace.
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WalMart has Blue Bell Ice cream.
But again, your disdain for the poor is showing. WalMart provides a source for the necessities that is significantly lower than other stores, and being able to spend less for necessities means the poor have more to save, or spend on extras.
https://www.city-journal.org/html/profit-anti-poverty-15120.html
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@Tabor
“How long does a business stay in business providing poor quality?”
Long enough to kill some people. And then fly by night with the proceeds.
Google it yourself. With the FDA stepping back from oversight there is a rush of shitty products hitting the market created by corona virus.
And by the way, your idea that doctors always act in the best interest of their patients is not borne out by the evidence. Doctors are people too and plenty of them are corrupt. How many millions of expensive and unnecessary test have been performed by labs in which a doctor has a financial interest? How many expensive brand name drugs have been prescribed versus generics because the doctor wants to please the pretty young drug rep that the pharmaceutical industry employs by the thousands? And so on.
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…”especially with aspirations for VP, can never be satisfied.”… Horse hockey. Cuomo, Inslee, Newsome, HOGAN (R), Northam, Pritzker, have NO aspirations for VP.
And if you’re going to make accusations against someone, at least spell her name properly. It is WHITMER, Whitaker.
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Agree on the typo, but disagree on aspirations. Hogan is a Maryland (R) which is just to the left of Schummer. And Northam started positioning himself for VP the day he took office as VA Governor. IMO
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Your opinion is completely delusional at this point. The governors in question are trying to do what is best for the citizens of their respective states. (I forgot to add DeWine in Ohio. Also Wolf in PA) Whereas Trump is only doing things to help one person: Trump.
But apparently you think EVERY governor in the country aspires to be Vice President. Completely delusional.
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Not every governor, just every one who is term limited.
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And your comment remains, as stated before, delusional.
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And Northam’s political career ended with the yearbook kerfuffle. Kind of toxic, unless he changes parties and joins the GOP. That photo would fit right in.
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@Tabor
Your “odd” statement is a good example of argumentum ad hominem. It says nothing about the truth or falseness of the assertions being made which, as reminder, is that Trump is lying through his teeth about the availability of testing.
You can accuse those complaining about Trump’s lying of playing politics, or I could accuse those not complaining about his lies as doing the same. It does not actually matter. He is lying about the tests or he is not. As a matter of principle one should look to the evidence to know the truth. And the evidence says “Yep, he is lying. Adequate testing is NOT available.”
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Unless you can specify how many tests are needed, and where, and back it up with reason and data then whether there are enough tests available is not a binary question.
Who are we testing? Those with symptoms? Those who had contact with a person who tested positive? Or just anyone who asks.
Absent those criteria, ‘enough’ remains an infinitely movable goal post.
So, how many are enough? Until you can answer that, it is not Trump who is the liar.
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@Tabor
It IS a “binary question.”
Do the medical experts believe that we have enough testing capability – Yes or No.
Here is the take of one leftist rag on the state of testing . . .
https://www.wsj.com/articles/coronavirus-testing-hampered-by-disarray-shortages-backlogs-11587328441
Based on this evidence your defending Trump and calling those challenging his rosy statements “liars” is not at all supported. Given that we ALL know that testing is still inadequate you really look like your common sense and objectivity has gone AWOL when it comes to Dear Leader.
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“Unless you can specify how many tests are needed, and where, and back it up with reason and data then whether there are enough tests available is not a binary question”
OK, so what are the specs provided by the administration? It is demanding the states ramp up, but to what level.
PS: you are quick to denigrate any Republican governor who challenges the administration as not being truly a conservative. Just like Trump. Screw the sick and the dead, just kiss Trump’s ass and everything will be just fine.
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I don’t knock Maryland’s GOP governor because he criticizes Trump, he is a RINO based on his firearms policies. In particular, for his State Police traffic stops of Virginia drivers whose license plates are flagged for having a CHP.
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So you openly admit to being a single-issue voter? Interesting.
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Some issues are canaries in coal mines.
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You are what I see as a single issue voter. If the candidate fits your vision of the 2nd Amendment, then he could be the most corrupt, vile, ineffective, ignorant, petty person, but gets your vote and approval. Just like Evangelicals with gay marriage or abortion.
In my opinion of course.
Trump is raising this 2nd Amendment issue to deflect from his inability to deal with this crisis except by blaming everyone he can conjure up in his daily rants.
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Why do you think Trump has not dealt with the crisis effectively? Can you show that other choices would have led to a better outcome.
Consider that the USA and the European Union are roughly the same size, with nearly equal GDP.
By any measure, total infections or deaths, Europe has done much worse than the US.
So, on what basis have we failed? Compared to Utopia?
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“In my opinion of course.”
Count me in.
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@Tabor
Again, cherry-picking the evidence. I can do it too. South Korea had its first case and first deaths at the time that we did. They took immediate action. We dilly-dallied and Trump lied for 70 days. At this moment we have had 40,905 confirmed deaths. They have had 236. Coincidentally, Japan has also had 236 deaths. You know the country that “conservatives” mocked for closing its schools. THOSE countries demonstrate what was possible if we had acted early and decisively.
As for Western Europe, they are about three or four weeks ahead of us. We will see how it comes out in the end. However, if Trump gets his way on ending the shutdown, the outcome is entirely predictable. It will not be good.
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I wondered when someone would bring up South Korea.
There are non-governmental reasons why they have done well.
One important thing is that they have a sense of social responsibility we do not have here. They have worn masks if they thought they might be infected during flu season for decades.
South Korea also has the lowest illegitimacy rate in the developed world. That means that if someone gets sick, or has a sick child, they have another breadwinner to carry them while they stay home. No one has to go to work sick.
There’s no one there going on spring break during an epidemic or doing other selfish, socially irresponsible things. Not because of law, but because of culture.
Oh, and regarding Europe being a month further along that us, thank Trump for that. Europe did not restrict travel from China.
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If we had sick leave, like other countries, we could stay home too.
If DeSantis had closed the beaches, Spring Break would have fizzled. Those partiers were just doing what the GOP leaders, FOX and the president said was ok.
Social responsibility? Use that word here and you are labeled a socialist or worse. Universal healthcare is a social responsibility at the minimum.
Of course early testing and rapid response at the outbreak rather than waiting 2 months also had a lot to do with it.
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Social responsibility has nothing to do with government. It is doing the right thing without being forced, you know, like libertarians advocate.
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So GOP leaders, like Nunes, FOX folks, Limbaugh, DeSantis and others speaking for the president, and the president himself, bear no social responsibility for telling people to party on. Just the kids.
Sorry, but that won’t fly no matter what philosophy you adhere to.
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When did the President or anyone else tell people to “party on” or otherwise abandon voluntary social distancing?
You are hearing the words of the charicatures in your head, not real people.
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https://www.vox.com/2020/3/13/21178188/fox-news-coronavirus-sean-hannity-trump-response
https://www.forbes.com/sites/rachelsandler/2020/03/15/rep-devin-nunes-told-americans-to-go-to-your-local-pub-public-health-experts-say-the-opposite/#6fa1c1c16d96
“ “We’re talking about a much smaller range” of deaths than from the flu, he said on March 2. “It’s very mild,” he told Hannity on March 4. On March 7, he said, “I’m not concerned at all.” On March 10, he promised: “It will go away. Just stay calm. It will go away.” D. Trump
“ Republican Oklahoma governor Kevin Stitt on Twitter uploaded a picture of himself with two kids at a food hall in Oklahoma City on Saturday.” March 14.
DeSantis didn’t bother with a shutdown of beaches until the last week of March.
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The dates on your cites range from Mar 2 to Mar 15, at that time there were fewer than 500 cases in the US, nearly all travel related
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1102816/coronavirus-covid19-cases-number-us-americans-by-day/
There was not any known community spread in the US.
So again, who is telling anyone to party on NOW?
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Good God Don, March 16 was the day Trump gave his speech that we were in a pandemic.
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Pretty prescient of him, wasn’t it? I thought you said he was behind the curve.
Did you look at the article and graph?
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I give up you are so wedded to revisionist history that n matter what happened last month matter not.
Yes I saw the graphs. Funny how a few days later we exploded. Must have waiting for Trump’s green light. March 24 we had 20,000.
Party on folks. Just a few sniffles. What happened in the rest of the world stays in the rest of the world.
The markets started crashing 3 weeks earlier. The pandemic was in full swing in Europe. We still hadn’t even looked at our supplies. Obama was blamed for not having COVID19 tests ready to go.
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” Obama was blamed for not having COVID19 tests ready to go.”
No he wasn’t, that was entirely the FDA and CDC bureaucracies, and largely beyond the control of Trump or Obama.
If you remember, when Northam closed schools statewide, I warned it was too soon, that people would expend their resources and want to go back to work prematurely. And that is exactly what is happening.
What would be the result nationwide of closing the restaurants 2 weeks before it was necessary? How many more would have been bankrupted?
That is a consideration that armchair quarterbacks can ignore but the President can’t. Too soon isn’t as bad as too late, but it is still pretty bad,
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“ And remember this: We inherited — the word is we inherited bad tests. We really inherited bad tests. These are horrible tests. And it was broken. It was all broken. And we fixed it,” Trump said at the White House briefing on April 1.
“The original test — the ones we inherited, Jim, as an example, they were — they were broken. They were obsolete. They were not good tests. And that’s what we got stuck with,” he said at the April 3 briefing.
“Initially speaking, the tests were old, obsolete, and not really prepared,” he said at the April 6 briefing.”
https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/04/07/coronavirus-no-trump-didnt-inherit-faulty-test-from-obama/
Ok, so who was Trump referring to when “we inherited”…Fred Trump.
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@Tabor
So are you denying that South Korea acted very quickly and very strongly at the first sign of the pandemic? If so, you are wrong. Sure, their cultural practice are more suited to fighting a pandemic but that does not explain the HUGELY more effective response.
By the way, I am at a loss what the legitimacy rate has to do with the spread of a respiratory disease. But if it is an important factor. it would be those Trump supporting red states who are suffering the most because they are where the illegitimacy rate (along with drug addiction and a host of other social ills) is the worst.
By the way, Trump did not effectively restrict travel from China. That is a good example of how he simply lies. You are someone who constantly claims a superior intellect and advanced knowledge of science. I think it is unlikely that you are not aware the tens of thousands of travelers landed from China is not effective and most certainly did not save hundreds of thousands of lives as Trump claims.
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@Tabor
On the one hand you attribute our pandemic problems to our people NOT being responsible – like Koreans – and cite their going to the beach during a pandemic as evidence.
“There’s no one there going on spring break during an epidemic or doing other selfish, socially irresponsible things.”
And in the next post you are defending people like Trump and DeSantis. Trump told everyone that the churches should be full at Easter – a beautiful thing. And DeSantis ignored scientific advice and very publicly refused to close the beaches. Might be bad for business.
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@Tabor
“There was not any known community spread in the US.”
As always, you do not get your own facts. Community spread began in February. February is before March. California’s leader took that information seriously. President Trump ignored it.
https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2020/s0226-Covid-19-spread.html
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@Tabor
You warned that it was too soon?
And what makes you think you were right? Virginia – knock on wood – has fared pretty well versus many other states. Maybe that “too soon” social distancing has something to do with it?
If people are itching to give up social distancing now, I will warn that it is too soon. Rosy projections coming from dishonest leaders do not Trump reality. Gas lighting will not stop a virus. Maybe people would not be so eager if they had not been lied to from the beginning.
As I said the other day, this is not the time for half measures and ALL the economic sacrifices to date will be for naught if we do not stay the course.
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“How much is enough?” Hers is one answer to your question.
https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/493722-us-needs-to-conduct-20-million-coronavirus-tests-per-day-to-fully-open
““This Roadmap is the only approach to BOTH contain the virus and ramp back up to vibrant economic life. And, in the long term, it allows us to build an infrastructure of pandemic resilience that will serve us well when the next health crisis or disaster hits, while improving community health,” Danielle Allen, director of Harvard University’s Edmond J. Safra Center for Ethics, said in a statement.”
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20million per day?
That would be enough to test every man, woman and child in the US, twice, each month.
But again, we don’t need to be at full capacity the START reopening. We don’t need the same rate of testing oin Wyoming as we need in New York.
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What is amusing is those that want to blame Trump for everything think they can have it both ways. First you blame him for not shutting down the country soon enough and in the same breathe blame him for the state of the economy. The later is caused by the shutdowns, duh. There no single answer for every state but there is more than enough room to open economies in a safe and effective measured approach. Some industries, like movie theaters, will have to wait but the beach with distancing and small grouping is more than acceptable. When was the last time you plopped your butt down closer than 6 feet to anyone on the beach? Me, I don’t think ever. More like 15 or more. To sum it up, no state is the same and the story is very vague on who is complaining so my guess is it is mostly Democrats eager to polticize the situation. STOP pointing fingers and use your noodle.
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“ STOP pointing fingers and use your noodle.”
Just what I told Trump the other day.
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I’m glad you have such a close relationship. Never would have thought. Can I have his number?
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Touche’
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You are not authorized.
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Bob, I think the current state of the economy is not the fault of the administration. Pretty obvious to anyone that the shutdown created the recession. You are taking the whiney route that makes no sense.
Let’s let the Republican governor of Maryland explain what is the problem, however:
“To try to push this off to say that the governors have plenty of testing, and they should just get to work on testing, somehow we aren’t doing our job, is just absolutely false,” Republican Gov. Larry Hogan of Maryland told CNN’s “State of the Union.” “Every governor in America has been pushing and fighting and clawing to get more tests, not only from the federal government, but from every private lab in America and from all across the world.”
See, Trump wants to open the economy. Understandable. So do the rest of us. But without a vaccine, effective testing is the only way. The amount of testing is staggering, upwards of 500,000 to 750,000 per day. More than the states can handle without supplies and reagents. Trump can enact pressures the states can’t to ramp up.
Yet, he is blaming the states.
We can do this but it requires vast organization, resources and leadership. So now can you grasp what is going on and then ask why the administration is dragging its feet and playing the blame game? And why he is siding with protestors to push for opening before testing is ready to go?
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…”blame him for the state of the economy”…
I looked and looked and saw no blame being tossed at Trump concerning the economy since the virus shutdowns started. Why would Bob the Plumber even say such nonsense?
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He’s subbing for the Polish General?
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I thought they were Siamese twins, joined at the “hip”.
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What you can’t seem to do is nail down exactly when “enough” testing is enough. Trump did not say just open up everything, that is what you are falsely implying. His stance is current shutdowns are way too strict in most states and it is time to start easing them up. Va Beach’s infection rate is .0006, so why can’t I go to the beach just to sun or buy some jeans from Penny’s via pickup? Liberate is exactly that, easing over restrictive burdens and it will get louder. Oh you might want to tell Paul that the current economy is not Trump’s fault, he has squarely blamed him numerous times and that you think he is whiney. I don’t see anyone dragging their feet either, that is false. Can you grasp that?
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@BobR
We have no idea what the Virginia Beach infection rate is since so few tests have been done. According to that recent study at Stanford the actual rate of infection could well be 80x the number of known cases.
I have refrained from blaming Trump for the state of the economy even though his foolish tax cutting for billionaires has hamstrung the ability of the government to ease us through the crisis and even though his 70 days of dithering and lying shook the confidence of the markets and, of course, made the pandemic worse. Still, I readily acknowledge that he did not deliberately sabotage the economy and probably really, really hoped that “just like magic” the problem would disappear.
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Did I imply that Trump wants to open everything?
No. But he has no plan to help the governors do the testing that is required. And every health expert, including Trump’s own folks say testing is necessary. A lot more than now.
Face it, Trump is a whiner. Nothing is his fault. The media picks on him. Governors don’t kiss his ass The Chinese are mean. The “Deep State” is hiding in his closet. Unfair, unfair…waa, waa, waa.
Dragging feet. Where have you been, on a cruise ship?
He did nothing until March 16 when he suddenly realized what the media, the people, the market and the world knew 6 weeks before. He made some half assed restriction on China travel February 1 that still brought in 40,000 travelers afterwards with little or no screening. Until the end of February, Trump’s Commerce Dept. was still encouraging exports of PPE’S to China without even bothering to check our supplies that he’s been in charge of for over 3 years.
And now he is insulting the governors for whatever problems he created.
The economy before the virus was shaky. He borrowed a trillion of our money to boost the DOW.
Yet 42% of the jobs in our nation pay at or less than $15/hour. And that is the minimum wage many states. This is why when a crisis does erupt we have to borrow even trillions more because the tax cuts didn’t even get us more than 2% growth after the first few quarters, so revenues tanked. And the interest rates were kept at near zero, so not much help there.
This is also why people need cash now because minimum wage workers can’t put aside enough to weather even one week without pay. In the “just desserts category”, our food supply network is so dependent upon rapists, drug dealers and criminals (most Americans call them immigrant labor, legal or illegal) that as plants shut down they are left to fend for themselves.
The regime is a train wreck. It took a serious crisis to expose the charlatan. And, lo a behold, he is not happy. So he whines, bitches, insults, threatens.
Now if you disagree, tell me where I am wrong.
I’ll listen.
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Speaking of testing and Trump surrounding himself with “all the best people” here is a profile of Trump’s current “testing czar” who, as it happens, got his original posting at DHS based on his strong anti-choice credentials.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/brett-giroir-trumps-testing-czar-was-forced-out-of-a-job-developing-vaccine-projects-now-hes-on-the-hot-seat/2020/04/19/b061b968-7e89-11ea-8de7-9fdff6d5d83e_story.html?utm_campaign=wp_politics_am&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_politics
If this piece is fire-walled here is the takeaway . . .
“But after eight years of work on several vaccine projects, Giroir was told in 2015 he had 30 minutes to resign or he would be fired. His annual performance evaluation at Texas A&M, the local newspaper reported, said he was “more interested in promoting yourself” than the health science center where he worked. ”
Sounds like a Trump Mini-Me, IMHO.
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It is hard to see where the “lie” is that Trump is accused of. The NBC piece claims Trump said that “states are conducting a ‘sufficient’ level of coronavirus testing.” But the statement is ambiguous on its face.
Gov. Northam, for one, seems to think Virginia isn’t doing enough testing to justify loosening the economic restrictions he has imposed, but you can’t make a Trump “lie” out of Northam’s opinion.
Northam and other governors are complaining about shortages of test supplies. But you can’t really make a Trump “lie” out of that, either. Trump didn’t say there are no shortages, and in fact has organized federal resources to address supply availability issues. FEMA is the lead coordinating agency. Where supply chain problems cannot be resolved, CDC/FEMA is prioritizing distribution to where requirements are most urgent.
The CDC seems to think that the data it is currently getting from the states is sufficient to determine trend lines in the progress of the disease down to the county level in all the states. To the extent that the testing supply chain issues are real and not imagined, CDC will likely raise alarms about that in the near future.
That’s pretty much where we stand at present, and the big-government types who think that federal bureacracy is good for all of us should be very happy. You just need to sit back and wait for the CDC to tell you what is going on.
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“Northam and other governors are complaining about shortages of test supplies. But you can’t really make a Trump “lie” out of that, either.”
BZZZZ!!! Wrong. Trump keeps telling us that everything is in sufficient supplies when it is the individual governors who are telling the truth. They know. They listen. He makes shit up as he goes along. He deflects, denies and lies to us several times a day.
Now you accuse people of making up that Trump is lying. Those who are the blindest are those who choose to not see. Or listen. Or, G-d Forbid, pay fucking attention to TRUTH. Not Trump truthiness, but actual verified facts.
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As I wrote: “The CDC seems to think that the data it is currently getting from the states is sufficient to determine trend lines in the progress of the disease down to the county level in all the states.”
Put another way, the question isn’t whether the governors can do as much testing as they want, but whether the testing they are able to do is enough to determine the trend line they need for decision-making. But since the CDC is the arbiter of that, your beef is with the CDC, not the president.
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Last I heard the CDC was in the Executive Branch. So it is Trump’s responsibility as it has been for over 3years.
Just like all presidents throughout history.
This includes Trump despite his best and incessant efforts to avoid responsibility.
I would say IMHO, but what I wrote is fact, not opinion.
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RE: “Last I heard the CDC was in the Executive Branch. So it is Trump’s responsibility as it has been for over 3years.”
That dog don’t hunt. You still have to address the fact the CDC seems to think the testing in the states is adequate for their purposes. The burden remains on you to explain why it isn’t, if that’s what you believe.
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The CDC is now fully owned by the Trump administration. I am leery of anything they are saying at this point because they don’t want to lose their jobs for “disloyalty”. It has gotten to the point if anyone steps out of line, the next line they will be in is the unemployment line.
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“… CDC seems to think the testing in the states is adequate for their purposes.”
And what purposes are those? To open the economy?
Do you have a cite that the CDC is satisfied with the way testing is going now and what they say is a goal.
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RE: “Do you have a cite that the CDC is satisfied with the way testing is going now and what they say is a goal.”
You can watch the daily task force briefings. The one today spent a lot of time explaining the availability of testing at the state level. I got the impression that the governors have been complaining about problems that don’t really exist.
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